The Pathologisation of Muslims As Everything That is Wrong With Europe
By Farish A. Noor ~ December 3rd, 2009. Filed under: Syndicated Columns.
The recent ban on the construction of minarets for mosques in Switzerland - passed by a majority of Swiss citizens mind you - is symptomatic of something that is far more disturbing in Western Europe today. The first decade of this century has witnessed the rise of a new wave of extreme right-wing politicians and political parties across Western Europe, some with scant regard for ideological consistency and coherence, with the sole purpose of mobilising the masses against the perceived ‘threat’ of foreigners in general and Muslims in particular.
But historians will note that these developments are neither new nor unique. After all, Europe has continually been through such prolonged instances of moral panic and mass hysteria when it had to face the fact that it was and is part of a bigger world where other cultural and religious possibilities exist, and where alterity can one day arrive at your doorstep. Looking back to the 19th century we recall the bad old days when Western Europeans were panicking at the thought of the dreaded ‘yellow peril’, and where fear of the massive and sudden migration of Asians - notably Chinese - led to a backlash that expressed itself through the stereotypes and cliches of Asians as devious and perfidious Orientals who would stop at nothing to eat up your property and sell opium to your children. Then came the recurrent fear of Indian, Africans and of course Arabs.
The present climate of fear over and about Islam and Muslims is therefore something that comes in the train of a long history of Othering the Other, and casting the other as alien, strange, exotic and sometimes potentially malevolent and dangerous. Except in this case we are talking about a Western Europe where Muslims have become part of the social fabric and where Muslim settlement dates back to the post-war decades of the 1950s, with the migration of Indians, Africans, West Indians and North Africans to the continent.
For a host of reasons, the success and failure of the various immigrant communities in Europe has been uneven. While some communities have successfully climbed up the social-economic ladder, others have lagged behind. Compounding the difficulties are the prevailing stereotypes that make up the normative structure of racialised capitalism and post-colonial race-relations. Arabs in the West suffer particular abuse and racial stereotyping in this regard, for the media and popular culture continue to present them as ghetto-bound misfits and pathologically violent maladjusted figures who stand out in bold relief against the domesticated background of multicultural society. Until today, the perception remains that Arabs in particular are prone to violence, domestic abuse, misogyny and a host of social ills that seem to point to the primordial past of Europe that Europeans wish to forget. Cast in that light, Arabs seem to be framed as the figures of defeat and failure, as if the Enlightenment project itself could not go that far and could not ‘rescue’ these people who are beyond redemption, due to their culture and religion.
But hang on… Since when are individuals determined essentially and totally by culture, history or religion? And why is it that in the case of Arab-Muslims in particular there is no latitude given to free will, agency and the potential for self-transformation?
A vicious cycle seems to have been created by this dialectic between stereotypes and limited opportunity structures: Arabs are seen as incompatible with the West and whatever the latter stands for, and as such are less likely to be given the chance to succeed and reinvent themselves. I sadly note that in all the years that I taught in Europe, I did not have a single Arab-Muslim student to supervise at Masters or Phd level. The stereotype has become a self-fulfilling prophesy.
It is against this context that the ban on minarets and mosques in Switzerland has to be understood. Coming at a time when Dutch politicians like Geert Wilders are calling for a re-think over the place and belonging of Muslims in Holland; all of this bodes ill for Europe’s own perception of itself and its place in the world. If Arab Muslims in Switzerland (as in Holland, France, Germany and elsewhere) fit in less today, perhaps these politicians ought to ask themselves what they have done - or not done - to give these people the same opportunity structures they expect and demand for themselves?
Europe’s multicultural project seems to be failing, but that is not because European Muslims cannot fit in or refuse to do so. The one thing that none of these right-wing European politicians want to admit or address is the institutionalised modes of racism and discrimination that have led to the marginalisation of communities that yearned to belong but were told that they did not. Until that is addressed, banning mosques and minarets will do little or nothing to solve Europe’s own troubled conscience as it seeks to define its multicultural project anew.
December 3rd, 2009 at 23:31
“communities that yearned to belong but were told that they did not”. I like this quote.
December 4th, 2009 at 03:40
Stop blame others! There is many other religious people in West, why only muslims has been marginalised?
December 4th, 2009 at 04:01
For once, I do not agree with Prof. Farish Noor! Europe and its mostly progressive Western civilisation, which is mainly Christian West, is being imposed with extreme arrogance by Al-Qaeda led/constructed Dark Age sexist, sadist and fascist Arabic culture (we are talking about CULTURE, not race - so stop with simplistic and typical ‘racism’ accusation there! ) Such is the Arabic culture, that homogenizes (such as the primitive veiling of women/girls particularly in savage Burkhas including in the West - imagine the horror of unfortunate Westerners!) and ruled with an increasing brutal iron grip, how and what kind of Islam should be practised, on what used to be diverse Muslim identities, whether of self, cultural and ethnic identities, from East to West, globally, including in dynamically multicultural and used to be modern Malaysia (remember the great P. Ramlee times!)! These kind of Dark Age Muslims, who are Islamists (who politicize Islam) deceitfully and selectively exploit UDHR, but only to protect their (usually male-Arabic identity)interest; but could not give a toss about other human rights, which are all equally important, nor other beings human rights, whether of ordinary Muslim believers, particularly women/girls and gays, and non-Muslims!
Katharina Sri (former: Noor Aza)
Germany.
December 4th, 2009 at 04:41
Aaaahhh….Farish, I expected better from you.
Before I comment on your article, let me say that as a former Malaysian it is somewhat comical, maybe even ironic, to see a Muslim Malaysian commenting about the virtues of multiculturalism and discrimination against Muslims in Europe, when today in Malaysia; entire Sunday church services are being held in private homes and shop-houses that barely resemble a place of worship, because getting a permit and a piece of land to build a proper “house of worship” is a near impossible task for any non-Muslim group.
I should know since I was just back in Malaysia this past year and attended a Christmas service in a building that did not have any outward signs of a traditional church and not even so much as a cross to even indicate that it was a church. When I asked the parishioners about why this was so, I was told that they wanted to be “discreet”, as some local Muslim groups had raised heckles about a church being so close to nearby Muslim areas.
Does this story sound familiar, Farish ?? Do you see decapitated cows circling your head ??
But leaving Malaysia aside, lets take a good hard look at the European situation. Switzerland, Scandinavia and many other smaller nations in Europe were for the longest time entirely homogeneous populations unlike countries like the US, India, Malaysia, and even the UK.
These countries with their liberal social values welcomed Muslims mainly thru refugee resettlement programs, asylum applications, and some thru labor needs.
Unfortunately for these countries, there are a couple of “unique pathologies” that are fairly common among Muslim societies.
Let me list 2 of them here:
1) When Muslim are in the majority, they tend to be very aggressive towards their minority non-Muslim communties and marginalize them. This is an established practice in every part of the Muslim world that has non-Muslim minorities.
2) But when Muslims are in the minority, they are also the ones to cry the loudest about victimhood, their human rights, and discrimination.
If you want to see the underbelly of Muslim immigration to Europe with all its warts, then just go to any predominantly Pakistani/Bangladeshi neighbourhood in London. Everything from endless azan calls at every waking hour of the day, to honor killings, burqas, demonstrations for sharia law, Taliban lookalike men, etc, are on display every single day in English towns in the name of what - multiculturalism ??
By the same token, isnt it peculiar that a country like the UK with all its messy problems with Muslim communities, has a large number of Hindus and Sikhs as well who by and large are very well integrated, successful, and respect the culture, values and ethos of British civil society.
Now, can anyone with a straight face honestly blame the Swiss for not wanting to repeat the English experience in “multiculturalism”.
December 4th, 2009 at 07:31
Just like what we have here in Malaysia, albeit with the roles reversed.
December 4th, 2009 at 07:39
Well, how come no one questions Saudi Arabia when no churches or any other religious buildings are allow to be build?
Can we say then Saudi Arabian is racist and barbaric?
December 4th, 2009 at 07:47
Farish, why should anyone bother with the Muslim migrant just because they are Muslim?
My family lives as migrants in a Western country down under. I cannot see any dispensation rendered to my kids just because they are Asian. I can see that they regarded no differently from any citizen or native. And my kids too don’t ask for any exclusivity just because they are migrants. Of course it is easier for them as they are able to fit into the social and religious fabric that already is there. For those needing something new, as in temples, synagogues, mosques and so on, there is not a problem. Of course they are not permitted the megaphone just as the traditional houses of worship do not have these either.
If you see exceptions arising, especially in the last decade or so, it is because the Muslims have begun to demand for more. To live differently. To educate their kids differently. To have laws of their own even. To celebrate the 9/11 instead of reviling it. To praise Al Qaeda instead of being opposed to it. To support suicide bombers instead of reviling them. To dress differently and to comment on the living styles, standards and mores of the traditional occupants of the land. So sure, when like in Denmark and Holland when they take arms as well and destroy property, you will find people like Wilders and more coming out. What is Wilders really saying? You want ot come here to Denmark, this is how we live. Live like us. If you can’t just go!!
December 4th, 2009 at 08:01
welcome to the realworld.perceptions are created.secular politics itself is an art of perception.today’s economy is fast becoming a web of perceptions.the equity markets are up for grab to the perception-provocateurs to make a killing.that’s why we have this so-called brainy strategy of ‘hit and run’!when all these economic and politico perception-manouverings played within and around deep into the social fabrics…the full cycle is damn completed and the world is ‘up-for-grab’!!!present human system has FAILED,either we admit it or not.THE DESTRUCTION IS IN THE HAND OF THE FEWs.when america went in to destroy iraq…it was never a decision of the american people but a fews in the name of mr.bush and the lobbyists working for the MASTER.the master wanted to banish iraq so the dogs wagged their tails!….thus the foreplay devilish art of perceptions was triggered.suddenly u got a new global jargon came up WMD!!even the owner of the so-called WMD,mr, saddam himself didn’t know what the hell was that!the rest was history……the same goes with al-qaeda,9/11,muslim militants.and in our local front…the jargons of ketuanan melayu,etc etc are plain products of umno’s politico perceptions to please its MASTER.and the master is LUST,MONEY and GREED….and back to the iraq war…we can find the answer in the Quran.so the issue of the minarets is tooooooo trivial UNLESS……!!!
December 4th, 2009 at 08:23
In Malaysia can, in Europe cannot? They have every right to do so, just like the Malays in Malaysia have every right to do so. And you forgot to mention the worse the Europeans have done, to the Jews in the Holocaust.
December 4th, 2009 at 08:34
Dear Farish,
From my experience in Europe I was robbed twice by Arabs once in France and the other time in Belgium not to say that the white Europeans are angels for I had bad experience with their immigration officers in France and Germany. Just my luck I guess. Back home are we any different when the minorities are being actively and officially sidelined and marginalised all in the name of Ketuanan Melayu? So many of us are voting with our feet and what about those who cant vote with their feet? Like the Arabs in Europe, would one fine day our minorities resort to violence as a form of protest when pushed against the wall? Our right wing politicians seem to think that they can only threaten the minorities with violence and the minority would simply submit meekly.
December 4th, 2009 at 08:49
Will Saudi Arabia allow churches be built?
December 4th, 2009 at 08:51
More self pitying drivel. I suppose the irony is lost on the author lecturing Europe on tolerance and inclusiveness from a country which which has raised racism to an art form. A country with a plethora of laws designed to stamp down on it’s Chinese and Indian population while favouring the Malay majority. Europes Chinese and Indians are doing pretty well thank you very much. In Europe they can get to whatever educational level they wish without first having to get in line behind less bright “natives” who have places reserved for them based only on race and religion. And you know what? They are thriving in this environment and Europe is all the richer for having them. They jump on every opportunity available and leave the excuse making and self defeating culture of victimhood to others.
December 4th, 2009 at 09:17
Dear Farish,
I have appreciated your views on past issues.
But on this issue, I must disagree with you.
The Europeans are a cultured and accepting lot in general.
The problem is Muslims impose too much of their religion on the way of life of the local citizens of Europe.
The political Islam and the very fundamental flavour of Islam practiced by the majority is something to worry about, and the Europeans are right to worry about this.
The Europeans may have had fears about other races coming and upsetting their system, but this is a fair and valid concern.
Even in Malaysia, we have have tight and stringent immigration laws that prevent immigrants from other parts of the world from coming in BECAUSE we are scared Malay dominance and Islamic dominance will be lost, etc.
The Europeans treat the Muslims very well as far as my travels across Europe — France, the Netherlands, Germany and Spain has shown.
The problem is with the majority of Muslims and the dominant ideology in Islam which calls for the transformation of the world into an Islamic realm.
Islam itself needs to be renewed and tempered down and made more moderate and more in line with secular principles.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:26
Farish,
Before we start criticising other countries with better human right records, why don’t you start with abolishing racism and Ketuanan Melayu (master-slavery) culture in Malaysia?
Europeans have freedom of speech and religion, which the Arabs and Muslims are taking advantage of, in their favour.
In Malaysia, Muslims have no freedom of speech and religion, at the same time oppressing the minorities financially and socially.
I’ve always wondered why Muslims would choose to stay in a Western country, why are Muslims not attracted to the Muslim culture in Arab countries? Having lived the system of Muslim politics and the lawlessness of Islamic judges oppressing the minorities, I cannot wait to leave Islam culture behind. Islam culture rewards evil and punishes the good. Islam culture is a curse to nation building.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:40
Oh please. Give me a break. since independence no churches with crosses have been allowed to be built in malaysia. what about s.13 shah alam. what about bibles and crosses being banned in saudi arabia. what about the killings of christians in Indonesia. What about Southern Thai Muslims bombing buddhists. And this is in so called moderate Muslim populations.
“Let’s begin with Egypt. Coptic Christians form ten percent of the population; however, they don’t even have one representative in the Legislative Assembly! Recently, when some Christians tried to enlarge their church building in Al Minya Province, they faced a violent reaction from their Muslim neighbors, who upon leaving their mosque after the Friday morning prayer, beat up and wounded many Christians and forced them to stop their work on the church!
“In Gaza, a Christian was abducted and murdered early in October, 2007. He had done nothing wrong, except that he happened to be of the Christian faith, and was in charge of the Bible Society bookstore!
“In Iraq, two priests were abducted; one was 35, and the other 65 years old. Those who abducted them demanded one million dollars for a ransom. Many Christians were forced to leave their homes; daily they
face discrimination based on their religious commitment. “As for Lebanon, they’re having extreme difficulty to elect a Maronite (Christian) president, due to a series of assassinations that were directed mainly against Christian men. “And let’s not forget the forced marriages that take place in Jordan, and in other Arab countries. A Christian girl is forced to change her religion, upon “marrying” a Muslim. Quite often, when such marriages end in divorce, these young women are not allowed to return to their previous faith. On their official ID cards, they are listed as “bila deen” i.e. without religion! Sound familiar in our country?
What about Darfur, islamist Janjaweed murdering and raping anything NOT MUSLIM.
In UK there are at least Muslim/Asian descent MPs in their Parliament. Recently a female Muslim British MP was egged by muslim men for not being ‘pious’ enough.
Muslims demand the bloody world when they go anywhere. But never ever do they give back the same service to other people. All that drivel about peace and tolerance and understanding. All only lip service. I’ve even read/watched documentaries about non arab muslims being discriminated upon in Mekah while doing the pilgrimage because they don’t look ‘arab/brown’ enough. IE the whites and the blacks.
And Mr. Farish, have you EVER BEEN to those neighbourhoods in lets say East London where the population is ALL Muslim Asians?? Holy Hell it’s a dump!!! And it’s common sight all over UK! Whole neighbourhoods degenerate into absolute dumps and the community is so reclusive and refuse to become part of mainstream British society because it’s not MUSLIM enough. So the question is then why even move to these European nations if you insist on living the same way you did in your home nation? I really don’t blame the Swiss for wanting to prevent parts of their country degenerating into these ghettos seen in France and Britain.
And as far as I know all these European countries have laws against discrimination based on skin / ethnicity/ religion. What do the Arab/Muslim nations have? Most of the time, open discrimination against anyone who is NOT muslim.
You will get the respect you deserve. It is reciprocal.
December 4th, 2009 at 10:52
Both the west and, with it’s present closed mind, Malaysia are finished. That’s why I moved from Malaysia after ten years of watching the insidious reversion to a third world backwater since Mahatir stepped down.
Very sad.
December 4th, 2009 at 11:49
Arab-Muslims “victimized”???
As far as I know, they get a much better deal economically in their new homes, when their own kind have repressed them in their motherlands. So, Who’s victimizing whom here?
But they wanna raise a hue & cry, when they don’t get the same freedom - which they themselves wouldn’t advocate for others?
Get a grip, Farish - this is the typical hypocrisy of those who seek to sabotage a way of life the west has been comfortable with for centuries.
Get real …
December 4th, 2009 at 11:51
btw, since when has a minaret been a necessity for a mosque? Many states have controls on architecture …. so why should mosques be exempt?
Can’t they pray without minarets??
December 4th, 2009 at 14:01
Farish Noor,
As a admirer of your intellect and well-reasoned views expressed in your past writings, I am most sad to read this article by you - of all people, a Muslim who i thought would be one of the rare shining lights to lead Malaysia out of the darkness brought about by UMNO’s greed and reckless disregards for the Nation’s future, through it’s blatant abuse & exploitation of Islam and implementation of divisive policies to perpetuate Ketuanan Melayu and racism.
Paul Warren, Mattster, Katharina Sri, born2reign, AmitaChong’s comments struck the nail on head & poignantly express the frustrations of & injustices suffered by the marginalized non-Muslim-minority citizens in Malaysia & non-Muslims in other Muslim-dominant countries.
Tell me, “jaundice-eye” Farish (which you sadly expose yourself to be in this article), which is worse and should deserve your wrath more?!
Our own Malaysian BN government’s abuse & exploitation of Islam for its own disgraceful ends, its hypocritical and corrupt practices and blatant discrimination against other races just because they are not Muslims OR an issue of such trivial importance which you had chosen to give credence to in this article of yours instead of first understanding the underlying reasons why the majority of the Swiss voted against the construction of minarets (which as commenter “cruz” so correctly pointed out, is NOT a neccessity for a mosque. I’m sure Allah/God could NOT care less if out of neccessity that one can only pray to him in a toilet!! I’m doubt many would disagree with me when i say that “substance is more important than appearance” to Him!!!)
Thus, with a most heavy and disappointed heart, i end by saying this, “Farish, you are not who i thought - one of the shining & leading lights to lead & save Muslims from themselves & Malays from racism and extremism.”
I, for one, would dearly love to see you prove me wrong, Farish A. Noor !!!
December 4th, 2009 at 15:28
Hi,
This is what we call taste your own medicine ! These muslims dont give a damn about others welfare and now want cry out loud ha ! how is it feel to be in the other shoe !
wherever part in the world these people are ,they create problems an restlessness in the area , china ,southern thailand , southern philipines , malaysia ,indonesia ,pakistan,afghan,bangladesh ,london …not to mention all the great middle east countries…what a great religion !!!
They major problem in the world with religion is none other than the one and only religion is these people !!
peace of advice — its only worth practice in deserts !
December 4th, 2009 at 15:48
We Muslims need burial grounds that face the kiblat (bearing in mind the scarcity and value of land in Europe) and to be allowed to conduct korban according to Muslim rites (even though in abattoirs) in countries that abhor cruelty to animals. Should we not be looking at ourselves and attempting modernization without losing the Muslim identity? It will be unnecessary to repeat here the discrimination that “Others’ face in a exemplary Muslim Malaysia.
December 4th, 2009 at 17:59
Abandon yourselves from the shackles of religion and a closed mind and breathe the fresh air of seeing thing as it is in this world! The world needs this more than ever now. Minarets, mosques, churches and deities of yore etc - maybe needed at one time but now they all belong to the past and should stay there!
December 4th, 2009 at 21:13
Farish, Farish you are spinning. There have been around 14,000 plus attacks by Muslims all over the world. Why will not the Swiss feel worried? Yeah, one question, did you do your HSC or the STPM, before you went to University? If the answer is negative, then you should look at yourself in the mirror. You got Govt scholarships? If affirmative, pls do not preach. Condescending too.
When Turkey’s Islamist Prime Minister Tayip Erdogan proclaims that, “the mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the (Muslim) faithful our soldiers”, a culture war is being telegraphed that only the blind can ignore. Turkey’s own planned entry into the EU parallels the bayonets and soldiers spreading across Europe. Swiss voters decided that they did not want any more Muslim bayonets in their country, thank you very much. If an honest referendum were held on the subject in just about any First World country, the results would be much the same. And every politician in office who bows his head to Mecca and praises Islam to the heavens knows it too.
And if Muslims feel aggrieved, then maybe it is time we had a rational conversation about rights and responsibilities. And perhaps when there are churches and synagogues in Mecca, then there can be minarets in Switzerland. Perhaps when synagogues in Europe do not need to build tall walls around themselves and churches do not need guards against arsonists– then no one will protect rising Islamic demographics. For the moment though Muslims demand at the point of a bayonet, what they are not willing to grant to others. And in the fact of such unrelieved dogmatic hostility and intolerance, any talk of equality transforms democracy into nothing more than a suicide pact. Read the whole piece here…
Another nice one:
The Wall Street Journal story on the Swiss minaret vote had a great quote in it, from a Jamal-on-the-street interview in Turkey (the source of most Muslims in Switzerland):Cavid Aksin, an Istanbul metalworker, was angered that the referendum coincided with the end of one of the most important religious feasts in the Muslim calendar. “I think Turkey should have a referendum on whether to close down its churches,” he said.You mean churches like Hagia Sophia? Or the Armenian Church of the Holy Cross? Or the Halki Seminary? After 1,400 years of closing down churches, the gall is unbelievable. National Review
December 4th, 2009 at 23:02
I remember working for an international organisation whose portfolio included taking up cudgels against mistreatment of Muslims living in North America and Europe. We churned out one protest letter after another, accompanied by short and lengthy essays on the subject. I admit I was caught up in the furore, feeling sympathy for any mistreatment of my Muslim brethren by the ‘wicked West’.
One day, we received a letter from a Muslim woman living in the UK. While she praised us for the work we did, she also lamented that we were woefully ignorant of the fact that Muslim women were also the victims of mistreatment by fellow Muslims. At that time, my reaction was to cast the letter aside and ignore it. How could Muslims living in foreign lands possibly be instigators, when they were clearly the victims? How naive I was then.
Now every time I hear news about bombings and the violent snuffing out of innocent lives, chances are Muslim hands are involved. When will Malaysia be targeted? How long can the world tolerate all this violence before they react?
Isn’t it ironic that of all the peoples in the world, the Jews and the Muslims are the ones who cry out most often about being persecuted?
December 4th, 2009 at 23:30
Whenever a Muslim is threatened in any form or manner, the whole muslim community shouts foul. I cant think of any muslim in modern times who fought for the rights of another race or religion except for Raja Petra. As a person you would feel pain when something bad happens to the people who share the same language or faith with you. As you evolve to become more spiritual you will feel the same pain when others irrespective of religion or race suffer in different circumstances. The deploring refugee camps in sri lanka housing tamils would have been an international issue if they were muslims or christians. What about persons whom are not allowed to renounce their religion to embrace the faith they are comfortable with. Farish do you know how it feels when temples are destroyed, beheaded cow head is displayed or opportunities denied in education and govt jobs at home. Farish When it happens to your people it is pain full right, what about us minorities what do we do.We have to obey because you are the majority here, and that is not considered discrimination but right of the majority.
Applying the same right of the majority practiced in Malaysia and other Muslim countries like pakistan, arab etc No melayu should speak about the mineret that is banned because it is the right of the majority correct. I just laugh at the sense of justice you guys try to dispense.
God Bless You & My Beloved Country I Long To Belong
December 5th, 2009 at 01:44
This is by no means the most extreme example of Islamic intolerance I could offer, believe me the world is packed with examples, but it is fresh and perfectly demonstrates the Islamic tendency to dominance: http://bit.ly/67gIDR
You may hit that link with comfort this is not a link to a jihadist video or a Saudi beheading or anything on those lines. However I’d be happy for Farish A. Noor to pontificate on this subject instead of handing out lectures to Europeans on tolerance and inclusiveness. It’s behaviour such as this which is giving Europeans the chills. Why else don’t Europeans get worked up about Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Zoroastrians etc? Hint: you won’t need 3000 words to answer.
December 5th, 2009 at 08:18
so there u are mr.farish.as i said u are one damn cunning slimy umno agent-provocateurs.once u played up the racial-religio sentiments,u succeded in getting what u wanted…..more hatred among and within!!!it’s pity that the days that prophet Muhammad pbup had forewarned..the days of FITNAH…is enmass today.yr style of ‘writing-behind-the-lines’ again and again surfacing actively whenever yr MASTER is drumming a specific issue.the umno establishment is desperate in clinging to power and what best way to hang on to it by FANNING the same old dirty tricks of ‘DIVIDE AND RULE’…..to my beloved malaysians…chinese,malays,indians,dayaks,christians,buddhists,hindus etc etc…GET THE BULL BY THE HORN AND DON’T EVER MISLED AND START GRABBING ITS TAIL COZ U SHALL BE KICKED BY ITS LEG HARD…AND YET THE BULL FREED AND ESCAPED!!!!
December 5th, 2009 at 12:57
,,,Deterioration in human relations is often caused by poor relationship skills and low consideration for other people, taking others for granted, ignoring and belittling them plus in general a lack of love, kindness and virtures.
,,,Fortunately, world-wide experience shows that such failures can still be avoided/reversed plus obstacles can be overcome with ensuring gratification. Much has still to be done by world leaders plus individuals too, through selflessness, sincerity, respect, rapport and co-operation, combined with the willingness to solve differences amicably with compromise and mutual benefits.
,,,A good advise to those interested to make this a better world for the younger generation and for all of us presently is to consider improving oneself too. The ability to listen unconditionally, to empathise, to compromise and reconcile shows kindness/courage/strength of character will indeed save good relationship together in humanity.
,,,what/why are we here for ?…for the betterment i hope and pray too ??.
,,,frustrations, sure everyone has it but lets take positive steps together to overcome them.
“EVERY CRISIS PROVIDES A CHANCE TO FIND YOUR BIG SELF” - dr m.maltz.
December 5th, 2009 at 15:08
wow. thats a whole lot of flak i will not need to add to. but i do need to ask farish noor to please respond to the replies, some of which are less polite, but almost all of which do ring true. i need to know if you personally feel you had not written with a clear mind, or if you still defend your position on this particular issue. please do let us know what it is youve been thinking since your entry.
December 5th, 2009 at 23:10
I think all the previous comments are good representations of how non muslim feel about the islamic religion and its adherents’ actual behavior and mentality. And that’s the saddest truth. Unless and until muslims take a deep and serious review of their actual practices against all that is good about islam, non muslims are justified in their views of the negative aspects of the religion.
For any Malaysian muslims who are opposed to the decision of the Swiss citizens, they must at the same time reckon with what their country is doing to other religions in return.
December 6th, 2009 at 07:01
Farish, this article of yours about the “stigmatization of Muslims in Europe”, is a good segue into a much needed debate about the insidious phenomenon of the aggressive, condescending, dismissive attitudes that Islamic majority and minority societies project towards non-Muslim faiths, and especially against non-abrahamic faiths.
Unfortunately knowing how Islamic societies work; this debate can only resonate if these questions are raised by a Muslims themselves.
A non-Muslim raising these issues will simply be dismissed as Islamophobe by Muslims.
As you can see from the responses to your column from many parts of the world; there is a unanimity of opinion on this subject.
It seems to me like the non-Muslim world is begining to understand that there are certain “unsavory pathological characteristics” for the lack of a better word, that are very unique to Muslims societies.
It is my view from personally observing Muslim societies that Islam breeds a certain myth about the superiority of Islam.
This creates a huge problem that Muslims cannot reconcile within themselves - the fact that many of the world’s worst countries with the highest corruption, poverty, violence, cruelty, and social injustice are Muslim majority countries.
Thomas Friedman of the New York Times(whom I dont always see eye-to-eye with) made a telling comment about Islam and the way Muslims feel about other faiths by comparing to software releases.
He said that Muslims think of Islam as version 3.0, Christianity - version 2.0, Judaism - version 1.0, and Hinduism/Buddhism - version 0.0.
I tend to agree with Mr. Friedman on this score.
The standard reply from Muslims to these comments, is to simply say that a few bad apples is not indicative of the true message of Islam.
The problem with this often repeated lame response is that a few bad apples in every basket renders your whole harvest toast.
Let me conclude by saying that if you really want to understand the concerns of Europeans with regards to Islam; then my humble suggestion to folks like you who straddle that narrow divide of the liberal Muslim intelligentsia should stop beating around the bush and start asking the really tough, controversial, politically incorrect questions about Islam.
And hopefully, for your sake Farish, I hope you dont get slapped with a fatwa asking for your head on a platter !!
December 6th, 2009 at 10:41
Aiyoh Farish,
Firstly, I’d like to let you know that I’ve never posted a single comment in my life, typically I just enjoy a good read, usually I simply have a moment of pause and reflection at the many posts, but more typically find myself having a good laugh at the many delectable comments to be found throughout the worldwide web, but for reasons beyond me I feel compelled add a thought of my own here.
I often wonder how frustrated learned academics, in particular Malaysian commentators must feel when openly airing thoughts and views. Malaysians of all racial backgrounds seam to have been so indelibly dumbed down for so many years that I am afraid the result is a lamentable situation where taking any position at all seams to inevitably result in the verbal impalement by ones fellow countrymen. Having read the comments i felt quite sad, it appears that just because they can string together a coherent thought in decent english, and clearly they have a modicum of intellect as many of their arguments are quite right and even well delivered, this somehow serves to empower them with the belief that its right to pass judgement on you, albeit I personally think its completely out of ignorance. Sadly, with regard to most Malaysians I personally believe the problem resides in the lack of exposure to intellectual debate. They have difficulty in remaining in the contextual framework of the discussion, and more specifically a depressing lack thereof of any historical or even current context. I see it everyday here in KL, and as you point out all too often when I’m in London as well. The rise of the right is certainly on the rise and of great concern to me is that it seams to have permeated its ideology into the collective thought of the masses. This belligerent you’re with us or against us mentality wouldn’t seam so bad if at least when you’ve been discussing apples, the other readers would have the decency to respond to your discussion about bloody apples and not to be discuss bloody oranges. Really man blady fool! This last one is definitely going to raise the blood pressure of many but its just too apt, pearls to swine.
Lastly, I’ll finish by adding a personal observation, you know you hit close to the bone on racial issues and thats why you rile up Malaysians so much, because we’re all guilty of being ferocious political animals preoccupied by race and religion.
In any case, I do hope you respond to the many off point personalities that have taken time to try to put you down, despite the fact that I fear many of them would be unable to get past their prejudices to understand your point, and hope to encourage you to just keep fighting the good fight.
peace:)
December 6th, 2009 at 11:40
Here is another one for you Farish. A view by Ayaan Ali Hirsh. She’s got the balance.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1205/p09s01-coop.html
December 6th, 2009 at 14:01
I really do not understand when people are saying that there is no freedom of religion in Malaysia, and christianity could not build a church in Malaysia, as if Muslim in Malaysia discriminating the non-Muslim. To further support their argument, they were questioning why there is no church in Arab?
Then may be i can ask whether there is a mosque in Vatican city or freedom of religion at that country. I am not saying that whatever done by the Saudi Arabia government in denying non-muslim’s freedom of religion is right nor wrong. What i am saying that we are human being regardless what religion we are. As human being we make decision based on our own background, value, history and numerous other reason which would make us have a different of opinion. Therefore there is no such thing i am right and you are wrong. We simply have a different of opinion.
However it is very unfair to blame the religion for the conduct of the its followers. Islam has given a very explicit command in the Quran that the non-Muslim’s right to profess and to practice their religion and also to build their own house of prayer.
To illustrate this, let me tell you a story. Umar Al-Khattab the second caliph of Muslim empire has met several Christian leaders in Egypt after the Muslim conquered the country. They had a meeting at one of the church. After the meeting, the caliph want to perform a prayer and the priest of the church invited him to perform the prayer inside the chruch. The caliph refused politely and said ” I am worried that if i perform my prayer today in the church today, the Muslim later on would said that Umar has perform his prayer in church and would convert the church to mosque”. He then performed his prayer outside the church.
The position of non-muslim in Islam is not merely a lip service. History has proven that when first Muslim state was established by the prophet, the first thing he did was to draft the Charter of MEdina which guaranteed the rights of non-Muslim especially the Jews and Christian in the state. This is the first charter in the world that declared such rights to non-muslim.
Now some of non-muslim saying that Muslim are cruel against non-muslim by citing some example in Lubnan, Gaza and Iraq. It maybe true, but to be fair then, how do you explain when some christian guy killed a pregnant women simply because she wears burqa. Then, would you say that the Christianity encouraged a Christian to kill a non-Christian. I do not think any faithfull christian would agree to such a ridiclious notion.
The rule is simple, do not generalize by citing one rare occasion.
In Malaysia, Muslim are 65%. Non-Muslim never have to be worried about their safety would be jeopardize merely because of their religion even if they are jews.
But the same thing can not be said to the Muslim in Australia, Britain, US, German and several other western countries.
I am not saying everybody in those countries are antoginizing Muslim but undeniably some minorities are and this jepordizing these Muslims.
I do not want to comment about why the Swiss goverment did not allow to built the building by the Muslim because i do not know the wisdom behind it. Therefore I would advise the Muslim to respect the decision and accept it.
December 6th, 2009 at 15:53
Yoo Farish,
,,,i will share with you/and the rest, my take on “religion” to a buddy in Aussie land recently…hope it makes sense to the rest too ??..nothing sensitive just about how/what i feel deeply and sincerely about it ya….
,,,,same here buddy, am not that religious too myself in practice but strong in faith in all religions in/across the world at large.
,,,for some practices, like meditation, yoga and vegetarianism, are undertaken for a spiritual purpose. This tends to be thought to characterize Eastern religion more than Western. Perhaps this comes from the perception that Eastern religion is more marked than Western religion by mysticism. This perception might be true to some degree,but even Western religious traditions that eschew mystical practices often have many practices and rituals which could count as a ’spiritual practice.’
,,,In any case, Western religions, speaking generally, tend to focus on professed theological ideas more than in the east. The Islamic solat, for example, confesses the shahada, and Christian prayer in its many forms often focuses on God, God’s character, Christ, or the surroundings of the person praying.
,,,By contrast, Buddhist meditation focuses on deepening our experience and understanding of the mind or of Buddha, these things often being understood to be the same thing. In Zen practising koans focuses on the contemplation of unsolvable paradoxes as a tool for the emptying of the mind or no-self.
,,,am lucky in the sense that I was brought up in an open minded family, my dad sends all his children to various types of school, in my case to ASC Ipoh where-by I attended christian chapel classes in the morning and islamic studies in the evening, it was not compulsory for me to attend the christian classes but was encouraged by my dad to learn other religions while at that tender age too !. There is a Hindu temple in Buntong, close to our home too and I was allowed to participate in many of their religious activities with my hindu friends. My mother’s side of the family has Thai blood and some of her relatives are still Buddhist and I learn more about Buddhism too later in life for better appreciation of the good teachings of Lord Buddha too. In fact, I brought my wife to Bangkok way back in 1983 to understand/appreciate more about the teachings too. She studied in the Convent School in Alor Star, Kedah, as such is very open minded on religious matter, she is a very devoted Muslim both in ritual & practice as compared to myself-lah !.
,,,For all the troubles in the world, its the individual not the religion that causes trouble and hardship to fellow human beings. I silently hope and pray for all to open their hearts to their/our/yours/mine/my- GOD !! and to practise kindness to fellow beings/animals/plants and be greatful at all times while/for being born to taste the fresh air and sunshine as one live b4 one pass away finally from this wonderful world.
,,,Life and living is/are very precious and time limited. Lets make the best of our day and have peace of mind and best of health always.
,,,One of my best of friends is a Jew and we don’t have any issues regarding religion ?!. Why should we ??..but am /we are not naive to it too yaa.
,,,Mind you, am color blind too ,,,,,hahaha !!.,,,,,,perhaps an Adonist on an island in the middle of the South China Sea somewhere ?.
…yes indeed, you can find me at Kapas Island….do drop in one of these days to “Capt’s Longhouse” for a long long face to face deliberation/discussion. Yoo !!. Mind you I have nil prejudices in my blood, so everyone is welcome plus its safe, my pet sharks might just be swimming along at times. hahaha.
December 6th, 2009 at 17:46
Man, here Dr. Farish is discussing something else …… There’s no need to call him names and give a certain color to his eyes. The good Dr. is * given to wordiness* but if you don’t get it, read again a couple of times before coming back with the rotten oranges.
December 6th, 2009 at 21:51
hey ibrahim. asking whether there is a mosque in the vatican city is a terrible example. If you were to bring the quran or the torah or the kuan yin statue to the vatican city, i guarantee you, immigration/customs/the authorities will NOT confiscate it. Unlike Saudi where all foreigners are screened and all such ‘offending’ items such as bibles crosses and statues will be confiscated.
The question is here why the double standard. If you were to go to Europe, you will be allowed to practice islam openly. But it is the other way around for Many Muslim nations.
As for Malaysia? When I was in high school, i remember the day that the School’s Christian Fellowship for students was banned from having meetings on school premises. The two christian teachers in the school were mysteriously transferred out to different schools and on the same day they left, we were told that the ten year old Christian Fellowship was banned from having meetings on school grounds. I remember clearly it was a Friday and when the two christian teachers were leaving with their belongings, muslim students shouted alluakhbar from the school surau. Even a petition with few hundred signatures from parents and students asking for permission to conduct the ten year old Fellowship on school grounds was ignored by the school administration.
This is just the tip of the iceberg of the unofficial discrimination muslims in Malaysia hand down to non muslims. Just because the muslims here don’t kill us we’re supposed to be thankful for that? is that what you’re saying??? Which then means you’re admitting its normal that nonmuslims in other countries get butchered on a daily basis for Example: Indonesia.
When i was in primary school my 8 year old muslim classmate told me things like Orang Yahudi Jahat. I’d ask them why? Pernah jumpa ke? The answer was Tak pernah! Tapi Ustaz kata dia jahat! And i’m sure drivel like this is being spewed to manymanymany muslim children all over the country.
It is usual for muslims also to quote verses like There is no compulsion in Islam and now you quote some ancient story about the Charter of Medina. But can you tell me in reality does it happen today? No. You cannot.
You say it is the Command of the Quran to allow non believers to build their house of worship. Go ask any christian in Malaysia and about their church building. Ask them if it’s in a shoplot or disused factory building. That’s what christians in Malaysia are reduced to. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET PERMITS TO BUILD A CHURCH ON OPEN LAND ANYMORE IN MALAYSIA. Unlike Mosques being built everywhere using taxpayer funds which non muslims also contribute to. Imagine asking a muslim community in Malaysia to build their mosque in a shoplot. i wonder what riots would happen then. All lip service! Trying to build a temple gets you a cow head and threats of riots!!!
The Point is that Europe and America actually allow and protect the rights of a muslim to practice the religion for the majority who are normal. Muslim countries rarely offer the same service. Mosques are built all over europe and america. Huge ones. Can you say the same for other minority faiths in Muslim majority nations?
And btw, you’re the one quoting the random isolated incident which is an anomaly. You heard about this incident because it is rare and next to never happens in such nations. We do not hear about the constant killings and oppression against nonmuslims because 1. no press freedom. 2. it happens daily that it is an accepted occurrence. Isolated incidents in Egypt, Lebanon etcetc? Really? How many years have civilians been dying in Philippines, Thailand , India, Pakistan because they werent muslim? Wait, how many years have muslims been dying in Iraq because they werent shia? How many thousand people died in Darfur because they weren’t Janjaweed muslims? And you dare to quote ONE death in Germany? Where the perpetrator was caught and sentenced? Did you read about the Honour killings in UK then a few years ago by Pakistani Muslims born in the UK? They killed their Daughter / Sister because she was seeing a man they didn’t approve of? How do you explain that?
Imagine if they had laws like a muslim must convert to christianity if they wanted to marry a christian in France. All hell would break loose! But nobody bats an eyelid or rather DARES TO COMMENT when it is practiced in oh i don’t know…….MOST MUSLIMS STATES!!
We all know Farish is not an idiot and the only people who read these sort of blogs are left wing open minded fools that the govt hates. But this is the only way a debate will happen. Its just once in a while we get Pak Ibrahims here who have only ever read the Quran since he was 4 and knows nothing about other faiths or entertained the notion of learning a different faith because it is an offence by law which means he’s been basically stuck with one school of thought since the beginning of time and never experienced how others have to live and what reality is actually like. A ban on minarets in Switzerland, not only muslims but every other left wing fool in europe is condemning a democratically voted law. A fatwa on a bhuddist statue in Sabah because it may cause a muslim’s faith to be hurt????? AND Nobody gives a toss???? So really, the muslims in europe are getting it pretty good i feel. Compared to what the rest of us have to go thru. geez.
December 6th, 2009 at 23:53
Mr. Ibrahim ,
Are you really living in Malaysia? If you are, you are just blind. To get people to repair temples it is next to impossible to get specialized worker for India. As for the Church building, Islam puts obstacles at every turn. Not just in Malaysia but around all muslim nations. Another, you can preach Islam but not any other religion can to mulsims. Why? Then this body snatching. What is wrong with Muslims today? I think the Swiss did the right thing. Enough of these missiles. Use the cell phone for calling the muslims for pray.
December 7th, 2009 at 01:46
Turkish PM recently said; “The mosques are our barracks, the domes are our helmets and the minarets are our bayonets”…..is it any wonder that civilized people everywhere worry about the advance of Islam.
Islam is not a tolerant religion and does not respect the rights of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists or even gays in Muslim or Western lands. Since the failed policy of multiculturalism has been forced down our throats we have seen that diverse cultures can not co-exist together, they clash.
Muslims are still allowed to build mosques in Switzerland but minarets are out. I applaud the Swiss for having the guts to have ‘citizens initiated referendum ‘ in their Constitution. This gives citizens the mechanism to challenge the Govt. position on many issues. Power to the people.
The Maldives is about to pass a UN written Constitution which states that all citizens of the Maldives must be Muslim. Isn’t this racist and also discriminatory? It is typical of the Muslims and also the UN to point the finger at others while neglecting the plight of the real victims.
Saudi Arabia bans churches and synagogues and does not allow the reading of ther Bible. Many Filipinos have been murdered for holding a pray or Bible study in the Saudi Kingdom. Where are the cry from the UN?
December 7th, 2009 at 03:02
Europe Has been through a lot in the first half of the 20th century. Unspeakable crimes against humanity and the challenge of rebuilding some of it’s major cities almost from scratch. Europe has too in the past had to deal with, and eventually overcome, religious fundamentalism of it’s own, Christian fundamentalism. We’ve been through those particular trials and for the most part are quite pleased to have arrived at the point we’re at now. For all it’s faults Europe is one of the best places in the world to live, not just by current standards but measured against any place in the history of humanity. Social inequality persists not everyone is nice, there are even some people left around that it would be fair to describe as racist. But by and large social inequality is less than it was and certainly less than most other places in the world. Most, if not all, European countries have robust legislation to protect the rights of minorities and vouchsafe the rights of individuals to worship, or not, according to their own conscience.
It took a lot of work, over centuries, to get Europe to where it is now. Liberals of every stripe helped transform European societies in to welcoming havens for people of any and every background. Farish, you should know a bit about this yourself having availed yourself of Europes open access to education. It’s a highly attractive destination for Muslims, isn’t it? And many Muslims come to Europe for the reasons advertised, they come precisely because they’ve had enough of Islamic societies and crave the personal freedoms on offer in Europe and are enthusiastic signatories to the European project.
Europeans are delighted to have such people in their midst. There is however another class of Muslim who come to Europe but reject much about the societies who’ve opened the door to them. The very liberalism which makes their existence in Europe possible is the first thing they reject. It’s ok to be liberal enough to hold the door open but beyond that this particular class of Muslim completely rejects. The problem for us Europeans is that our liberal societies have been hard won. Taking on the churches in Europe and divesting them of control of society was a long hard and bitter battle. Now we’re afraid that such Muslims are going to make us fight these battles all over again.
It begins by an attempt to assert “group rights.” This works like this, Muslims assert that they’ve no desire to effect wholesale change to society however they insist on an opt out for themselves from certain laws. Usually these are concerning matter of family law. Then certain Muslims, often but not restricted to Africans, begin not only circumcising their young girls and asserting that they’re entitled to do this as an extension of european equal opportunity and equal rights law. Here’s where the yoghurt hits the fan because that clashes with European notions of individual rights and laws protecting children. Europeans believe that parents “ownership” of their children has it’s limits and that children have certain autonomous rights, one of which is the right not to have their genitals mutilated. That is a right of every child and the state is there to protect them from such outcomes. Many Muslims not only reject this European norm but loudly assert their “religious” right to ignore it. Europeans don’t, in general, believe any such right exists. In European terms all children are equal and no one has the right to make a bargin about this which leaves Muslim girls open to such cruelty while girls of other denominations are exempted. That’s just a single instance, a single example, of where Muslim group “rights” simply clash with the societal norms everyone else has signed up to.
There is something else at work here too. I think a lot of Muslims think Europeans must be stupid or something. The minority rights they assert they’re entitled to, they argue, are simply laws they wish to impose on their own communities and that everyone else can just relax. Well we’re not relaxed. Without taking the worst examples of the extreme societies Islam tends to create such as KSA or Iran let’s take a look at your own country. While a lot of Europeans still buy the line that Malaysia is a, ahem, moderate Islamic society increasing numbers are learning otherwise now. We’re learning otherwise because we’re having to learn about Islam and we’re also learning more from Malaysians, usually the Chinese or Indian varieties, that the “moderate” tag is at best only a relative truth and at worst is a lie.
These people are leaving your country to come to the Europe you disparge so much. Despite your argument about the inherent racism of European most reports you’ll heat from such people are about the relief the feel about being in a society where the dice aren’t fixed against them. I’m European I really don’t mind if Malaysia continues to discriminate against it’s Chinese and Indians who knows maybe that’ll mean more of them will come to Europe and most Europeans would rather welcome more of them than have more Muslims on their hands. This isn’t because we don’t like the look of Muslims or the colour of their skin. It’s nothing to do with that. It does though have a lot to do with the fact that (non secularised) Muslims insist the host society is what needs to adopt to the
and not the otherway round. On the other hand Chinese and Indians are happy to adopt to the country they move into and get busy about becoming a part of that society. Europeans are beginning to think along the above lines. We quite like our societies and it’s becoming a choice between inviting the type of people who’ll enjoy our societies along with us or those who reject and scorn the society which opens it’s doors to them.
I’ve been reading some of they other copy on this site and it much of it seems reasonable and well argued but as a European I take serious issue with the above article. Get real about the disgraceful discrimination in your own society before denegrating one of the most open and diverse sets of societies in the history of civilisation. If you don’t it will be your own funeral and the Malaysian brain drain will continue and for us Europeans that will be quite a win because most of the brains who’ll be draining won’t be Islamic brains.
Btw, please forgive the many, I’m sure, typos. This comment has been hammered out on a phone keyboard.
December 7th, 2009 at 04:04
Let me follow up Amita Chong’s post by making a comment to all the Muslim readers of this column: My comments and most of the comments here are not directed personally at Farish Noor, but at the Muslim community at large.
If all Muslims were like Farish, there would be no very few problems between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.
Many of you Muslims reading these comments may be stunned by the temperature level of these comments and how strongly some readers feel about this.
Well, let me suggest to you a couple of reasons for this:
1) Muslims in general have a very selective reading and memory of history and even current events in their own country.
In other words; the most violent, outrageous, egregious acts by Muslims against non-Muslims are conveniently dismissed as an aberration. It does not matter if you are talking to a Muslim who is a high-school drop-out or PhD. Its almost as if you guys are in some “altered reality video game”.
2) The Blame Game: everything that is wrong with the Islamic world is somekind of US/Jewish/CIA conspiracy against Muslims. But Islam itself is always perfect, only that its followers are less than perfect. A recent survey in Pakistan showed that most Pakistanis still believe that all the suicide bombing in Pakistan are the work of an India/CIA/Israeli agents, even despite the fact that Islamic militants proudly take credit for those attacks.
3) if you are standing in a cesspool, you dont want to lecture others about cleanliness…do you ?? This is a simple concept that Muslims have a very hard time understanding.
You dont need a PhD to understand this. A quick cursory look at the plight of non-Muslim communities in any major Muslim majority country will suffice. Muslims have no ground to stand on, when it comes to talking about Islamophobia or religious descrimination with their own chequered record.
December 7th, 2009 at 09:05
Farish I salute you for allowing an open discussion in your blog.
You are doing a great job by allowing some of us to speak and come out with frustrations. Of coursealong the way we have strayed a bit too.
I concur with most good hearted people of all faith who intend peace.
Here I want to share why people are so afraid of certain religions especially the expansionist abrahmic lineage. These expansionists ideologies including I am right you are wrong which has caused numerous bloodshed and distruction. These suspicion still continuos today.
In fact one can pull out a stanza or two from the scriptures and describe ” here look my religion shows how people of other faith must be protected or point to an isolated incident on how some religious leaders have protected the other community. But one also needs to look at history at large not only from one story teller point of view of what actually took place but also the story teller of the other.
I can present you a 1000 years of blood that was shed as a result of muslim invasion of india or ( sorry discovery), but most of the time unlike other religious schools that teaches their children what took place during the reign of certain personalities that puts the other religion in bad light. Hindu teachers, temples and schools do not teach that part of history as part of its religious education. Becuase they do not want to hurt the muslims. Unlike othertraditions where history is part of their holy book.
By presenting a small excerpt from a large volume recorded by the arabs themselves i want to share what we feel islam is and what it would do if receives extreme leadership.
I sincerely do not wish to hurt anyone but just sharing that this actions accross muslim dominated countries and what is happening today in malaysia such as body snatching, non conversion laws, temple breaking, discriminative laws applied on minorities and special privelleges to muslims does little to appease suspicion.
Kindly read with an open mind.
Here I present you with the recorded history of Arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi, the secretary of Mahmud Gaznavi, read at Somnath,
Arab invasion and conversion of hindus …..
“The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidel (hindus) the worshipers of sun and fire…. The number of Hindus killed exceeded 50,000.” At Mathura( currently Islamabad), “Hindus…deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river…but many of them were slain, taken or drowned… Nearly fifty thousand men were killed.” At Thaneshwar, “The blood of hindus flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it.
The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims.
I am not here tp say what islam should become, I am sure there are great leaders within the ambit of the faith who desire to steer it in the right direction.
Religion is an expression of a culture to define and embrace the infinite.The by product of that interaction is love.
Switzerland has responded in the best way it knew how. People of the Muslim faith have to ask what happend and how they are responding to people of other faith in their own country.
December 7th, 2009 at 14:47
I am surprised that everyone is telling Farish that he should look at Malaysia, and start digging history of so called muslim atrocities. i have never heard that Farish supported any act of suppression, be it religion or ideology. i think all the response towards this article confirm his point, that everyone is turning exclusivist, not inclusive. what is more laugable is that everyone in giving justification that exclusivism is ok. or more crudely, coming up with excuse.
at least the swiss passed the law by excersicing democracy.
December 8th, 2009 at 03:15
When European Muslims carry signs saying “death to all infidels”, “behead those who insult Islam”, “We will destroy your democracy” etc etc. is it not surprising that Europeans take exception. Why is it that in Europe Hindus, Chinese, Vietnamese and other have integrated so easily, and Muslims have not? This is a complex issue with many strands, but it is not resolved by simplistic nostrums about European “racists”. If Muslims want to be part of Europe, then the solution is in their own hands. The Swiss reaction is a silly, reductive reaction to a far more complex issue, and is largely symbolic, but it does indicate how alarmed many Europeans have become with the forces of hatred and intolerance they now see within their borders. I am surprised to see a commentator as generally throughtul and insightful as Dr Farish resort to such an argument without proper investigation of the causative factors. (The flipside of course, is the stream of hatred of all non-Christian religions issuing from fanatic Christian websites, and which talk of the “extermination” of Islam. These extremists, unrepresentative of Christianity as a whole, are well represented in Malaysia, and are taken seriously by many moderate Muslims. The problem requires detailed analysis, not pointless name calling, and a major effort by the moderate leaderships of all communities.
December 8th, 2009 at 06:42
Quoting dasmean:
……the problem resides with the lack of exposure to intellectual debate………
Along this line, not long ago a British academia friend of mine pointed out to me the fact that, in my beloved Malaysia, there isn’t a single university offering a course in Philosophy. Such fact came as a shock to me initially. However, on deeper pondering the pieces do fall into place: judging from the general Malaysian public’s limited ability to disect and debate issues such as those brought up here, such fact should not has come as a shock.
I have lived in the UK for the past 30 years, and have had constant opportunity in meeting with undergaduates, graduates, post graduates and professionals of all lines from all corners of the world, I dare to venture saying that those from Malaysia are probably the meekiest when coming to any intellectual discourse.
The Malaysian mentality worships professional qualifications like medicine, law, engineering, accountancy. Yes, those that command high financial rewards in the job market. Nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is when the attention and knowledge of these ‘ echelons’ of our society never seeps beyond their respective fields. History; social issues; debates on human condition, such topics would surely attract repply like ‘ Not my field lah. ‘, leave alone philosophical debates.
Someting is seriously wrong in the way knowledge development in Malaysia is going.
Perhaps all the would- be intellectual discourses have beeen displaced by ‘ Kajian Ugama’.
We seem to have many technocrats. No intellectuals.
Hence a nation full of politicians with limited intellect, governing a people also of limited intellect.
Where is the light?
December 8th, 2009 at 08:52
,,,there is no right or wrong responses, as long as one is not subversive as far as am concerned.
,,,its just a form of communication to express one’s feelings, some maybe able to write better than others but its o.k.-lah, say whatever in your mind but be truthful about it. Just think more rationally and less emotionally plus believe that there is always a solution to any problem.
,,,via your responses, indeed you are reaching out,,,yes, try to leave the past, look forward to the future with enthusiam and expectation. We all must learn to adapt to the needs of the situation in this fast changing world.
,,,Lets take a fresh look and a new path plus lets invest our time and efforts in the most meaningful undertaking.
,,,Try your best to use this platform of Farish to focus on positives and spirituality…or for “creative frustration” by some ?. haha.
December 8th, 2009 at 21:35
Aiyoh!
I still feel that many do not understand what the writer is getting at, and in true asian debate form the posts seam to predominately read as a continuous drivel of ‘you touch me I’ll touch you back’.
This is really what upset me and prompted me to initially write something in the first place. Re-reading what I wrote, I realised I too didn’t really comment on the topic, rather just the comments posted, so here goes…
Those that have written posts which contend that the writer is hypocritical have unfortunately completely missed the point. In addition, just so many don’t assume that I’m somehow related, or a student or fanboy of the writer, and so simply writing in his defense, I include the following personal and independent contribution to the concerning dialogue.
How can he be accused of applying double standards? He’s a academic expressing thoughts on the recent referendum in Switzerland banning the construction of minarets, in reference to a mosque’s recent planning proposal, and this, as a result has provided clarification for any future islamic houses of worship planned for Switzerland…no minarets! He’s simply a muslim academic / social commentator writing thoughts on the swiss ruling, and in this instance has been largely misunderstood. He’s certainly not responsible for the ways of the historical or modern muslim world.
He’s discussing the ‘rise of the right wing’ in europe, and how the collective masses haven’t been immune to the fear-mongering that has been bred since the millennium, and how badly these tactics have affected Europe’s multi-cultural project. How what used to be the ‘aint no black in the union jack’ crew have repositioned themselves with muslims being the latest victim in ‘othering the other’ and of all these targets, none are more distinct and easy to set apart than the ‘arab-muslim’.
“A vicious cycle seems to have been created by this dialectic between stereotypes and limited opportunity structures: Arabs are seen as incompatible with the West and whatever the latter stands for, and as such are less likely to be given the chance to succeed and reinvent themselves.”
The result of the referendum is clearly motivated on racial and anti-islamic sentiment. I believe the most interesting point being in the execution of the whole debate. The right wings of europe have been waiting for an opportunity to mobilize and have needed to do so without openly conflicting with human rights legislation, or to be seen as openly racist. Based on the premise of architectural identity, they have illustrated the suppressed prejudices of many in the Swiss nation. They found the battle ground required, and by beating the drum of indifference gained the majority required and won the day…C’est fait accompli, what’s laughable is that this particular episode smacks of a hypocrisy from the BN playbook. To express such latent racial prejudice under the guise of cultural identity and the need for security, classic pundek BN/UMNO maneuver. It makes me wonder if there’s an BN/UMNO/MCA/MIC consultant group helping these Swiss ultra nationalists. Finally, to me the result of the referendum essentially reveals the depth of Swiss insecurity and indicative of Europe’s current situation as a whole, however it should also be remembered that around 43% of the nation were openly against it, and to them I say bravo!
I think those concerned should re-read the article slowly and if you get my argument about context being essential, offer apologies where necessary. I’m not saying much of what’s been said about the muslim world or even Malaysia is wrong (and I say this as a muslim), it’s just completely out of context. So take it……
and go:) peace!
December 9th, 2009 at 08:43
,,,yoo desmean, you hit the nail on its head indeed !.
,,,Too many of us are too selfcentred and as such needs reconnection with the real world outside. Unfortunately most don’t know how?. So I guess, re-education plus listening/reading with an open mind would be a good start. Your inputs are indeed valuable and most welcome too, for others to realise as to how/what/why on issues been deliberated without getting too emotional about subject matter or getting personal to each other and worse to the blog writer on his platform !.
,,,This blame game is indeed unnecessary and most childish if i may add without hurting anyone’s feeling. Most of us, unfortunately need to grow-up in this sense but its not too late. This new media in the e-world does allow quick re-education to most and its good for a start,,,do communicate but be objective and do please focus on primary subject issue as per the writer’s initial subject rather than bringing in non-issues or un-related issues.
,,,for those, that have a burning desire to speak-out on other interesting subject issue, do set up your own blog and write about it ?. See the responses and be challenged as it stand.
,,,Not only the muslim world is being challenged right now but all religion is in fact been put aside by many lost souls.
,,,A belief in God makes society more wholesome. A wholehearted submission to God’s teaching and grace makes the world a better place for all.
,,,am no preacher myself but they that deny God, destroy man’s nobility ! Hitler believed that ‘the will to power’ had replaced God, and he started the horrific and devastating Second World War in 1939…..now 70 years passed, we are getting into another uncalled for ‘world war of words’ i.e. www ?…even more devastating to the normal human mind, if I might say. All religion preaches humility in humanity, don’t deny that ever. Think rationally and lets make this a better world before our time is up ?.
December 10th, 2009 at 07:17
I find some of these comments of some of the Muslim commentators here like Dasmean not only condescending, but simply amazing !
No one is holding Farish Noor responsible for entire history of Muslim civilization. Nor is he even all that important to this debate.
The reason so many of the responders to this column are not talking about the “Swiss or their ban on minarets” is because this debate is really about much much more than about obscure Islamic architectural structure….Isnt it ??
We all know that the Swiss ban was not really about “Islamic architecture or Minarets”, but rather, a real concern about the creeping Islamization and radicalization of Muslim communities in Europe, the unique inability of these religious groups to integrate with local society, and their slow incessant, insidious attacks on the secular structures and social values that European society was built on.
As one of the replies here by Fess stated - this is a broken record that Europeans have played before, and they paid a high price for what they have now, and they have no desire to replay this record.
I would even agree that it was an over-reaction on the part of the Swiss - but my personal opinion is that it was a simple message from the Swiss voters that - enough is enough.
Why shouldn’t the Swiss be alarmed by the prospect of increased Muslim migration given the experience of the English, French, Swedes, and the Danes, and the fact that Muslims in general have a very high birth rate.
Some here have talked about stuff like “limited opportunity structures”, “stereotyping”, and the “rise of the radical right”.
Why may I ask, aren’t other communities like Hindus, Sikhs, and Chinese immigrants to Europe hobbled by these same “structures”.
As for the radical right - the radical right is really a reaction to radical muslims.
The Hindus, Sikhs, Chinese and East Europeans who migrated to UK with nothing more than the shirt on their backs, and some worthless currency, are not only well integrated, but the 2nd and 3rd generations are mostly professional and highly educated, well integrated and financially successful.
Name me a country outside of Western Europe that provides that level of financial and social services support to new immigrants that the Europe provides ??
I migrated to the US from Malaysia 20 years ago and never got a single dime from any government or social services program.
Now let get to the real crux of this debate - What is it about Islam that generates so much failure in terms of integration and respect for other cultures ??
Every major country that has a significant Islamic minority has major issues - India, UK, China, France, Thailand, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Philippines, Australia……
The muslim community in general is in a steady state of denial - if you really want answers to what is happening in Europe, then its time to look inward, and start asking the tough questions about your own inherent “pathologies”.
December 10th, 2009 at 14:12
,,,Should we if we really care, to also further consider and discuss plus relate on the possible pathologies of the Integral stage of consciousness, patterns of unhealthy integration that will surely have an effect upon the next hundred years of human development.
,,,When considering human development—the process by which people and cultures grow through magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic, and integral stages of consciousness—it is important to keep in mind that each of these major stages come in both healthy and an unhealthy forms.
,,,For example, someone moving through mythic consciousness in a healthy way would most likely take on the very best qualities associated with that level, including traits such as honor, respect, and hard work—while someone experiencing an unhealthy version of mythic consciousness would slide rather easily toward religious fundamentalism, xenophobia, and groupthink.
,,,The same is true for the rational stage—a healthy version would include things like intellectual curiosity, agnosticism, and critical thinking—while an unhealthy version would display qualities of scientific reductionism, as scientific curiosity becomes replaced by the certainty of materialism.
,,,And while the healthiest aspects of pluralism emphasize multiculturalism, egalitarianism, and emotional sensitivity, unhealthy versions tend toward radical deconstructionism, narcissism, and political correctness.
Let us all continue to mellow and mature psychologically throughout our lives….and for a better world.
December 10th, 2009 at 14:38
Ok, i’ve been reading all of these posts and i’d like to put in my 2 cents:
- MUSLIMS HAVEN’T INTEGRATED WELL INTO WESTERN SOCIETIES: Most intellectuals can tell you that this might be the case with Muslim immigrants living in Europe but not so in the United States nor in Canada. The Muslim immigrant community living there have integrated there pretty well, and it’s not so much of an issue. The difficulty of these immigrants to integrating are twofold, from my understanding:
One, most of them come from lower/middle income classes and have more traditional/ conservative backgrounds. They are more likely to be resistant to changing lifestyles and therefore more resistant to integrating, much less assimilating to the native culture.
Two, most of the European states did not have the intention of integrating/assimilating these immigrants, when they were supposed to be guest workers and and then eventually go back home. to my understanding, most governments in Europe have not taken the appropriate approach to accomodating the immigrants into their own native culture.
- NON-MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS ARE MORE WELL INTEGRATED THAN MUSLIM ONES: As a Muslim immigrant to Australia myself, i don’t think that this is particularly true. If it comes to, for example, language, I found most Asian/Indian/African Australians (whether 1st generation or 2nd) speak in a tongue other than English to themselves.
- COUNTRIES WITH SIGNIFICANT MUSLIM MINORITIES SUFFER MAJOR CONFLICTS WITH THESE MINORITIES: Then what about Singapore (14%), Trinidad and Tobago (5.8%) or Bulgaria (12%)? I’m not trying to deny or downplay the conflict in countries like Thailand and Philippines, what i’m saying is that it’s really easy to generalise and that this generalisation is misleading.
- BANNING MINARETS WILL HELP PREVENT ISLAMIZATION OF A COUNTRY: Really? Is it really true that Islamists start with minarets then work up to veils and in the end Sharia? I’m not defending sharia law, personally i think that it can’t work and that Muslim radicals are idiotic to denounce secularism. But minarets aren’t related to Islamization, as the SVP would like us to believe, and i feel that in the end it shouldn’t be a big deal. I don’t think that it’s so important myself. I mean, the minaret does not make the mosque, does it?
What is disturbing, and i think that Dr. Noor got this right, is that it’s set on the platform that Muslim immigrants are going to try to destroy their way of life (which i don’t think is particularly true). I feel that the SVP is trying to turn their democracy into a rule of ALL people into the rule of MOST people i.e. mob rule.
- IT’S OK FOR SWITZERLAND TO DO THIS SINCE COUNTRIES LIKE MALAYSIA AND SAUDI ARABIA ENGAGE IN SOMETHING WORSE: As Mona Eltahawy said, Since when did Saudi Arabia become their role model? Please check out this link: http://www.monaeltahawy.com/blog/?p=194
I read Ayan Hirsi Ali’s article. I think that she has made some good, fair points in it. But i disagree with the crux of the article. I don’t agree that the minaret is a political tool. Is Sharia law and the head scarf political issues? Definitely. But the Islamists are not making the minaret a tool to spread their political ideology, but i would agree with her that the mosque itself can become a space for them to spread their hateful message.
In the end, i think that the minaret ban won’t help the Swiss in whetever issue they think it’s related with.
December 10th, 2009 at 15:24
Mattster - Now let get to the real crux of this debate - What is it about Islam that generates so much failure in terms of integration and respect for other cultures ??
Fess - It does though have a lot to do with the fact that (non secularised) Muslims insist the host society is what needs to adopt to the and not the otherway round. On the other hand Chinese and Indians are happy to adopt to the country they move into and get busy about becoming a part of that society
Again the colonialism european white thinking, creation of monogamous society based on european ideals. Indirectly saying “Chinese and Indians can accept these ‘ideals’, it must be right, why cant the muslim”. again exclusivist ideals, we cant except you until you are in a club. Seem like europeans has moved on from skin but not ideas. Sigh. again confirms Farish article
December 10th, 2009 at 17:54
I agree totally with Mattster. The issue is much much more than ‘minarets’. I’d like to add a little though. Lebanon was the only Christian-majority country in the Middle East until it opened its door to the Palestinian refugees. And as they say, the rest is history. Wise men learn from the mistakes of others and the Swiss are learning fast. It is difficult to tolerate the intolerant. Perhaps the casualty of diversity is diversity itself. And democracy is used to destroy democracy.
December 10th, 2009 at 22:46
“Again the colonialism european white thinking, creation of monogamous society based on european ideals. Indirectly saying “Chinese and Indians can accept these ‘ideals’, it must be right, why cant the muslim”. again exclusivist ideals, we cant except you until you are in a club. Seem like europeans has moved on from skin but not ideas. Sigh. again confirms Farish article”
Again the self defeating and circular third-world-ist approach to argument and logic. You make some assumptions ashraf, mistaken assumptions. I am European, yes, but from a country which has never had any empire, which was ruled, for hundreds of years, by a colonial power and which saw its population decimated as a consequence of the policies of that colonial power. But guess what, it’s 2009 and I’m no longer interested in blaming the UK for the cultural and economic shortcomings of my own nation. Ireland and the UK are now close friends and we’ve both learned to move on constructively and with a good deal of mutual admiration. While we’re culturally distinctive in many ways we’ve found a way to concentrate on our many commonalities. Doing this diminishes neither party and results in net gains for everyone. Sure we could, and indeed some Irish do, continue banging on and on about how we were subjugated and robbed and undermined. It’s a legitimate choice to make, legitimate but self defeating. Where is the profit, for anyone, in playing the victim forever?
Farish’s article and the meaning those of us, who find it as flawed weak and self defeating, took from it is further confirmed by responses such as your own. The article is a sop to the self pitying Islamic double bind of superiority complex undercut by the equally pernicious Islamic sense of inferiority and persecution. If Farish has my admiration for anything, and he does, it’s the fact that he’s moderated the ensuing dialog with a light hand. That is admirable.
The paragraph of yours, I quote above, encapsulates the feeblemindedness typical of the audience which buys this nonsense. The fact is that throughout Europe the minorities mentioned have bought into the societies they’ve joined but, for the most part, have retained everything which makes them culturally distinctive. You skew my words and reinterpret them to fulfill your own moribund and failed ideology. You seek to portray, or at least imply, the admirable adaptiveness and flexibility of the likes of the Chinese and Indians as cultural weakness and paint these, successful, minorities as Uncle Toms prepared to sell out. I find such an attitude repugnant. As if that were not enough, and knowing nothing about me, you then assume, wrongly, that I’m an inheritor of Europe’s colonial legacy. This politics of identity is a neat way of attempting to side step an argument while applying a thin veneer of racist stereotyping of your own (but as it’s your own I’m sure it’s a good wholesome Malaysian variety of racism as opposed bad European racism, which every right minded person condemns).
The Indians and Chinese in Ireland, and I’d wager elsewhere in Europe, have sold out to no one. Here’s what they’ve done, they’ve integrated. That doesn’t equate to them being subsumed, they don’t all wear tweed and eat sodabread. By appearance and, for the most part, by habit and custom they retain what’s distinctive about themselves. And much of what’s distinctive about them is not only unthreatening to Europeans much of it is admired.
Now we get to an issue that I’m sure many of Farish’s readers would be interested in hearing his thoughts upon, why can Europe take to its heart so many cultures, races, colours and creeds with, at worst tolerance and at best enthusiasm, and yet it runs scared of Islam. Such an article, were it to be taken seriously, would require something a little bit more muscular and self searching than the jumble of excuses above. It might also alienate some of Farish’s core audience too. Alternatively he can continue to view issues such as the Swiss Minaret ban through the prism of Islamic victimhood knowing he has an appreciative gallery peopled with people just like ashraf.
Farish says: “Europe’s multicultural project seems to be failing, but that is not because European Muslims cannot fit in or refuse to do so.”…….The one thing that none of these right-wing European politicians want to admit or address is the institutionalised modes of racism and discrimination that have led to the marginalisation of communities that yearned to belong but were told that they did not.”
Farish assumes that European’s queasiness over Islam is a consequence of an unthinking and blind electorate falling prey to right wing politicians. This type of intellectual arrogance can only survive within the social sciences departments of universities where the air is a rarified as the thinking is circular. In the real world, the Europe of 2009, the electorate is better informed and better educated than they were in the 1930’s or even the 1970’s, especially in Switzerland. The other thing Farish conveniently ignores is that this queasiness over Islam is now cutting a much wider political swathe than he suggests. This is increasingly an issue which is occupying the thoughts of politicians of every political persuasion, not just right wingers. Were it just right wingers it wouldn’t be much of an issue, would it? It is an issue precisely because it is no longer confined to the right wing. Of course there are right wing politicians in Europe. Of course many of these are delighted to put the boot into a minority (I never said Europe was free of bad people, they’re everywhere) but (aside from some eastern european countries) these politicians have had great difficulty getting any traction for their ideology anywhere in Europe.
Farish says that the multicultural project is stalling but that no fault attaches to European Muslims. This is manifestly untrue. Farish is either information deprived or else he’s being disingenuous. Assuming the latter then he’s aware that in the wake of 9/11 and 7/7 etc polls taken among European Muslims showed that in the younger demographic (approx 18-35) almost a third of them supported martyrdom operations (suicide bombings). The European press tried to spin this as reassuring that almost 70% were against. But few Europeans were reassured and I certainly was not and am not. In that demographic a number in the region of 30%, in favour, of such extreme and nihilistic missions, is absolutely chilling.
Yet Farish doesn’t think European Muslims need reproach themselves. Do Muslims themselves not feel insulted by such reasoning? Doesn’t such reasoning actually treat Muslims as if they’re children, not to be held responsible or accountable for anything but indulged for everything? From reading Farish’s other material I sense a mind capable of forensic like analysis (when it suits him) so I have to assume, as far as this argument goes, it’s a conscious choice he’s making not to hold European Muslims to the same standard as he does non Muslim Europeans. In my opinion this is either simple straightforward intellectual dishonesty or else it’s intellectual timidity, whatever it is it isn’t anything close to an honest and unsparing examination as to why Europeans are becoming worried about Muslims and why such worries are manifesting in matters such as the minaret ban.
If the European multicultural project is failing, as Farish claims, then, if he’s serious about locating the cause for this, he’ll have to do a lot better than this article. One thing I’ve noticed about much of the European manifestation of Islam is that its proponents have little love for cultures other than their own. When I look to, so called, moderate Islamic states such as Malaysia I see nothing to contradict me in that opinion. Heal thyself and thine own racist society and give us Europeans something to cling onto by way of a positive example of an Islam society integrating it’s own minorities as thoroughly as is done in Europe. And by that I don’t mean denying them university places, digging up their bodies, decapitating their sacred symbols (and marching through the streets brandishing it) and living the fat life on the back of their taxes.
December 11th, 2009 at 12:34
Before I proceed, I have to admit my writing shortcomings. I do have problem articulating.
First and foremost, I am not a racist as Fess portraits me to be. I stated a fact, which is concurred by Fess, and a fact can never be racist. However, interpretation of the fact can be. And unfortunately, Fess has applied a thin veneer of stereotyping on me.
To begin, I find it strange that people with scant idea of Islam can comment or even worse, make conclusion of the discursive topic of Islam vs ‘everyone’ or vs west or vs secular. I believe strongly that in many cases, muslims are in a better position to give an unbiased view on the topic because we are living and breathing in the secular environment. All muslims, worldwide, are subjects of secular non muslims governments, for instance in the US and Europe, and in the Islamic countries, are subjects of secular governments or monarchs.
Hence to no surprise, the Malaysian ruling party (or some say government) reaction to fear, whether economic or security, is typical of a secular influenced entity, eradicate source of fear with nonsensical rationalization. Sadly, similar to the one chosen by the better informed and educated Swiss electorate. And not surprisingly supported by secular minded sympathizers, the exclusivist liberals (oxymoron) and even muslim apologists.
I have to disagree with Farish, Europe never had a multi cultural project. The so called ‘multi cultural’ project fell upon Europe as typically as it fell on other previous dominant civilizations. Once a civilization deemed itself powerful, economically and militarily (both usually come hand in hand), it is prone to open itself to talents from other races, mainly for commercials reason provided that it does not feel threaten by the influx.
Example, look at UK government treatment of Indian cooks, I think it was the Curry Act. A perfect example of protectionism when ‘multi culturalism’ goes wrong. I have to say those Indians assimilate themselves too well; read economically, that the local throws out its moral parallel (quoting Amy Winehouse). Another example, the Sikhs had to march/protest in London to dissociate themselves from Muslim, as the white majority can’t even properly identify their minority. Does it mean that the Sikhs have not assimilated themselves well? Or was it a thin veneer of stereotyping a turban? Not dissimilar to minarets I say.
Now finally on Fess’ statement “The article is a sop to the self pitying Islamic double bind of superiority complex undercut by the equally pernicious Islamic sense of inferiority and persecution”. Muslims are not an insecure lot, unless you agree with the muslim apologists, which from your statement, you clearly agree with. The crux of the problem is actually globalization which converges idea and value, even to what you eat and wear. It is the creation of a monogamous society with shared idea and value and ultimately wants. If not mistaken, an American economic philosopher in late 19th century said that mass production kills the plurality of wants, despite it offering various options, of the same thing. And I don’t know how you take this but you have to admit that your values, ideas and wants are similar to the Brits and so can dance together. That is what I mean by my earlier statement, and again I repeat Europeans have moved on from skin and culture but not ideas/values/wants. Frankly, I find it strange that someone who writes so well fails to understand this concept.
Finally, globalization converges value, towards secularization, specifically individualization that European stumbled upon when the Protestants / Church of England ex communicate themselves from the Vatican. Or maybe you can say when Europeans Hellenized themselves, such romantics. And more shocking, the land where this culture emanates from, its capital has not a single mosque. So where is the last bastion of traditionalism? I suggest you read books from Rene Guenon, French who died in Eqypt, and Martin Lings, with degree from Oxford. Funny eh, a self defeating and circular third-world-ist like me actually reveres Europeans.
December 11th, 2009 at 19:25
“Stop blame others! There is many other religious people in West, why only muslims has been marginalised?”
It’s a very sad fact that the majority of terrorist attacks are carried out in the name of Islam. It’s not the only cause, but in comparison with other religions, how often is violence on this level carried out or even espoused. The reason seems pretty clear.
It’s pretty tough to argue against how Muslims are targetted, when these unfortunate fools who do these terrible things leave such an awful impression on the consciousness of the world.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:34
,,,Guys we are all after common criminal acts, murderers and terrorists in our midst too !,,,so stop blaming every muslim/islamic individual in this little world of ours, for the sins of these “unholy acts of terror” !!.,,,,,,just read the following latest news and think for yourselves o.k. ? Please be real for a change ??. I have served in the military and fought against insurgents and war is terrible, you want to get a taste of it to really appreciate it, I guess ?. …Don’t !.
Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said Saturday the country’s army had driven the Taliban out of South Waziristan, a key battleground in the fight against Islamist insurgents.
After hailing the military operation a success during a visit to Lahore, the prime minister later in the day appeared to backtrack somewhat, saying military operations were not over.
About 30,000 troops poured into South Waziristan in October to clear the tribal district of Taliban strongholds, prompting a surge in bomb blasts and attacks in retaliation.
“The operation has finished in South Waziristan. Now there is a discussion of taking it to Orakzai Agency,” Gilani told reporters in Lahore.
Later, in the southern port city of Karachi, Gilani took a more cautious stance.
“If somebody gathered an impression that the military operation would be concluded, it could have been in a different context,” the Associated Press of Pakistan quoted him as saying.
“This operation has continued with great success and the strongholds of militants have been captured and a large quantity of weapons and ammunition has been recovered.
“I cannot give the time-frame when we will conclude military operation in South Waziristan, but I can at least provide this information that success rate is very high in this area,” he said.
He said that militants would be pursued if they took refuge in other places such as Orakzai, to which many are thought to have fled.
“We will take military action wherever we get information about the presence of militants,” he said.
Armed forces this year launched multiple operations across the northwestern tribal belt bordering Afghanistan, the stronghold of the Pakistani Taliban and a haven for Al-Qaeda fighters and other militants.
Speaking to students at Lahore’s Government College University, Gilani defended Pakistan’s US-backed military campaign.
“We are indeed alive in the most testing times. The retrogressive forces are adamant to stall the process of development,” Gilani said.
“Our government is committed to block their path and preserve a culture of peace and harmony in the country.”
A wave of blasts have killed 72 people since Monday, with the deadliest hitting eastern Lahore, where 51 people were killed in a dual suicide bombing at a market in Pakistan’s second most populous city.
Many militants are believed to have fled to Orakzai district in the centre of the tribal belt, where troops killed nine militants and destroyed two hideouts in airstrikes on Friday.
Meanwhile a military statement said that helicopter gunships and troops had killed 17 militants in central Kurram, one of the seven northwestern tribal districts of Pakistan.
It was not possible to independently verify the death tolls as the areas are out of bounds to journalists and aid workers.
The UN said Friday more than 40,000 civilians had fled the military operation in Orakzai and were in need of humanitarian assistance.
The army claims to have cleared another area, the Swat valley, of the militant threat in a spring offensive, although sporadic militant attacks and clashes continue.
More than 2,680 people have been killed in militant attacks in Pakistan since July 2007.
December 13th, 2009 at 12:40
“Western Europe where Muslims have become part of the social fabric and where Muslim settlement dates back to the post-war decades of the 1950s, with the migration of Indians, Africans, West Indians and North Africans to the continent.” (Quote from your article)
In the post war decades when they came in, they were let in as Indians, Pakistanis, Africans, West Indians, Arabs, Turks and what not. I cannot imagine that the immigration forms they filled in would have even bothered to identify them as Muslims. When these people came into Europe, they misled the Europeans into believing that they were receiving a hodge podge of people from different countries of different ethnicities who, to the host country, were basically HUMAN!!
They were let into Europe as fellow human being who complied with whatever the understanding was of homo sapiens. These people declared themselves as human beings with a common desire to live peaceably with their fellow men.
However, the moment they started becoming comfortable with their numbers and taken on every documentation that declared them as citizens, they remove their hoods and reveal their primary motivation for their existence which of course is quite alien to the hosts. The hosts, thinking that it is religion ans it is something sacred and personal and to be respected, have for so long not factored this motivator. But now they rightly are. And they should.
Maybe, Farish, you ought to explore the deception all these Muslim migrants have played on the ignorant Europeans.
December 14th, 2009 at 01:34
Oh My Giddy Aunt! I’m afraid I have to echo dasmean above - read the article!
Firstly, it is about European attitude towards Arabs-Muslims amongst them, NOT about Malay and Malaysia, or the Saudis or the Vatican.
Secondly, for those busy pointing fingers to muslims about killings civilians please remember that in a days time it will be the first anniversary of Gaza offensive where more than 1000 plus civilians died. Iraq and Afghanistan: well USA and UK are a predominantly christian countries.
Thirdly, as a muslim woman living in the UK one only has to open the pages of the popular press, esp. Daily Mail, to read articles by the likes of Melanie Philips to know that muslims (despite contributing large number of doctors to the National Health Service) are the ‘other’ amongst us. If the word muslims were to be replaced with jews (note the lower cases), the Press Complains Comission will be very busy.
Forthly, there are ghettos in European cities for any groups of people. There are white areas in the UK where a posh toff would dare not set foot, as there are areas in the UK where a brown person with or without a hijab would be made unwelcome. So, some of the examples given above are symptoms of inherent prejudices instead of evidence-beased.
December 14th, 2009 at 23:16
Some more talking points raised many worthy of a response but, alas time isn’t permitting today. Ida Bakar’s comments certainly warrant a reply, and perhaps a more thorough one than this, but the comment about the Muslim communities contribution to the health service tends to remind one that Muslims professional affiliation to the healing classes is a qualified comfort at best (I note other contributers to this topic quote extensively from the press so I assume the moderator will indulge me similarly):
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/world/uk-terror-doctor-unveiled/story-e6frev00-1111113868573
“UK terror doctor unveiled
From: The Daily Telegraph July 02, 2007 12:00AM
Horror … the 4WD blazes at Glasgow airport. Source: The Daily Telegraph
LONDON: The suspected ringleader of the plot to bomb Britain is behind bars after a dramatic arrest that closed one of the UK’s busiest freeways.
However the breakthrough brought little peace as it emerged the man is an Iranian doctor legally living in Britain – prompting fears that Al Qaeda propaganda is reaching beyond disaffected young Muslims.
He has been identified as Dr Mohammed Asha, a 27-year-old neurologist who recently started a job at North Staffordshire Hospital after being granted asylum in the UK.
One of the men arrested following the foiled attack at Glasgow Airport has also been revealed to be an Iraqi doctor living legally in Britain.
Police were last night interviewing five suspects, including Dr Asha’s wife, after counter-terrorism police swooped on four homes across the UK.
A further suspect is still being hunted.
It is believed the unnamed doctor and the second suspect arrested in Glasgow were responsible for planting the two Mercedes in London’s West End that failed to explode on Friday.
Dr Asha is expected to have played a key role in the planning of the bombing.
“It is shocking that a doctor, of all people, could be arrested over an attempt to kill and maim hundreds of people,” a security source told The Sun.
Police believe they form part of a previously unknown al-Qaeda cell made up of people of Middle Eastern origin.
Britain’s top counter-terrorism cop, Scotland Yard Assistant Deputy commissioner Peter Clarke, said he was absolutely confident they will have an understanding of how the group works soon.
“It is no exaggeration to say that new information is coming to light by the hour,” he said.
“I am confident – absolutely confident – that in the coming days and weeks we will be able to gain a thorough understanding of the methods used by the terrorists, of the way in which they planned their attacks, and of the network to which they belong.”
Prime Minister Gordon Brown remained defiant, declaring Britain “will not be intimidated” while warning the “evil” could last decades.
“We will not yield, we will not be intimidated and we will not allow anyone to undermine our British way of life,” he said.
As Britain remained on its highest level of alert, “critical”, authorities feared another attack was imminent.
It was also learned that security organisation MI5 has virtually suspended all other operations to focus on the manhunt, and that US security officials warned of an attack on Glasgow airport two weeks ago.
“We are all in this together,” Mr Brown said.
“Everything is being done in our power … to protect people’s lives.”
As police continued interviewing the suspects it emerged how lucky night clubbers at the Tiger Tiger bar were to escape the carnage.
Only a technical fault stopped hundreds being injured and possibly dying.
The bombs were rigged to go off when the mobile phones – the detonators _were called
The bombers called the Tiger Tiger car twice and the other car four times but they failed to detonate.
Police were able to use information from the phones to trace the suspects.
They led police to homes in Liverpool, Staffordshire and near Glasgow, where the arrests were made.
A bomb factory was believed to have been found in the raid near Glasgow, with more arrests imminent.
A security camera is believed to have picked up the car carrying Dr Asha, tipping off police that he was travelling on the M6 freeway, where counter-terrorism police were quickly dispatched.
Six cars, in a heavily co-ordinated plan, forced the suspect car off the road.
Witnesses said Dr Asha’s wife was wearing a Muslim veil.”
I’m sure Farish didn’t intend to open up a debate about the middle east and all that entails, and I’ve certainly avoided that subject thus far, but as Ida brings it up, ostensibly to have a, all too predictable poke at the jews, I consider myself granted license to respond.
Take this particulal nugget: “If the word muslims were to be replaced with jews (note the lower cases), the Press Complains Comission will be very busy.”
If if if if. Well if Jews were blowing up buses and underground stations, flying planes into skyscrapers, butchering fellow soldiers etc etc then I think it’s accurate to say that the press would report such stories with as much, if not more, gusto as they do the bad news Muslim stories. Stop shooting the messenger.
If British Muslims don’t want the press to cover such stories then the best advice I can give them is to bring about the level of change in their communities necessary to deny the oxygen which allows such extremism to flourish.
Jews don’t get this sort of press in Europe because there doesn’t exist any pattern of Jews behaving like this in Europe. If Muslims are so affronted by the press coverage then the rational advice anyone would offer them is to, and I know this is a real choker, do as the Jews do, which is to say do as practically every other religion and ethnicity does. Be citizens, identify yourself with the country you live in, WITHOUT QUALIFICATION, educate your children to accept as equals, again without qualification, their classmates and other kids in the neighborhood and allow happen what happens to every other community which migrates to a new land, BECOME PART OF IT!!!
I’m Irish, on my maternal side entirely so, on my paternal side I’ve a mixture of English, Russian and maybe even a bit of French. As you’d expect there were a number of different religions involved too but these differences were overcome. But first and last I’m Irish there is no conflict in my identity because my forebears became Irish and allowed their offspring to become Irish and to intermarry. It’s a good recipe for a harmonious existence and I commend it to any migrant community.
I’m sure my ancestors could have found numerous ways to be aggrieved at their new country. The lack of borscht and Plov on Irish menus must have been a real hardship, perhaps it was a calculated insult designed to exaggerate their “otherness.” The lack of such russian stables on Irish menus could have easily been spun as hostility to “the other” if my great grandparents minds ran in such a fashion. In other words if they were neurotic and paranoid.
Ida another thing the US is a republic with strict constitutional separation between church and state. It isn’t a “christian country” it is a republic where the majority of the population are christian.
As regards Gaza I think that is another front and although I’m greatly tempted to take you on about that I’ll restrict my response to this: why no mention of the HAMAS rockets which targeted Israeli civilians exclusively? Why no mention of the fact that civilian martyrdom is both a tactic and a goal of the Palestinian leadership? I don’t want to clog up this blog with link the the relevant footage, go look for yourself, but this is am incontrovertible fact! To paraphrase Golda Meir: The Israel Palestinian issue will be solved easily once Palestinian parents learn to love their children more than they hate the jews.
Ida conveniently mentions US interventions in Irag and Afghanistan but avoids the more troublesome US involvement in Bosnia. Troublesome for Ida because there was no motivation other than to save the Bosnian Muslims from the Serbians which goes a long way towards scuppering the notion that these represent christian wars against Muslims.
I note also that Ida states that Muslims contribute large number of doctors to the British Health Service. Do these Muslims arrive in the UK with their skills honed and offer their services? No, they don’t. The Muslims in question, and quite righty too, take advantage of an educational system which is open to all. It doesn’t, as is done in Malaysia to the non Malay (read non muslim) minorities, set a higher bar for Muslims to vault than it does for others. Doesn’t this reveal a somewhat level playing field rather than expose some plot to hold the Muslims back? Which takes me to another point of Farish’s which really does need taking on, head on:
“I sadly note that in all the years that I taught in Europe, I did not have a single Arab-Muslim student to supervise at Masters or Phd level. The stereotype has become a self-fulfilling prophesy.” says Farish. Indeed.
Well Farish, is the situation really as you seek to imply? It seems you’re rather having your cake and eating it too. You offer nothing to back up the conclusion you’ve drawn, and shared publicly here, other than the conclusion itself plus some dark hints at European racism. Why not offer something more than that? If you really believe that Arabs find themselves educationally discriminated against by European academic institutions, or European societies in general and given that your own academic achievements are, virtually without exception, European, by now, you must have a storehouse full of examples of this discrimination. Yet you offer nothing save your observation that you’ve “yet to have a single Arab-Muslim student to supervise at Masters or Phd level.” Do you really expect anyone, except perhaps your students, to treat such a comment seriously? To draw the conclusion you seek to proffer?
There are myriad alternative conclusions to draw from the rather impoverished data you offer. I’ll offer a couple, they might be right or they might be wrong, likely they’re part of a causal matrix of contributing factors, but at least they offer a more enriched set of explanations, or part explanations, than does your own, rather pat, hand crafted one.
1) Arab parents are less interested in rather abstract fields like your own and prefer their children to acquire more traditional professional qualifications such as (thanks Ida Bakar for reminding me) Medicine or Engineering. As a Dubliner this makes sense to me given the amount of Arabs enrolled in the Dublin Royal College of Surgeons. It’s possible there are a large, rather hidden, population of Arab students in UCD’s or Trinity College’s humanities departments but I’ve yet to hear of it.
2) The amount of book titles translated into Arabic, on an annual basis, is known to be notoriously low. The accounts I’ve read, and I admit I can’t rule out completely a degree of exaggeration being used, is that there are more books translated into Spanish on an annual basis than have been translated into Arabic in the last hundred years or more. I don’t know, and I won’t pretend otherwise, why this should be the case but I do know that this isn’t the fault of Europeans or Americans. (Farish, would you care to step up to the plate on this one? It seems you’re not interested, or are perhaps otherwise occupied, in engaging in the hand to hand combat of the comments section but perhaps you might like to take this one on in a future article.)
Whatever the explanation it hasn’t stopped Farish from completing a BA in Philosophy & Literature at the University of Sussex in 1989, before studying for an MA in Philosophy at the same University (University of Sussex) in 1990, then an MA in South-East Asian Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, before completing his PhD at the University of Essex in 1997 in the field of governance and politics. Notice something here? Notice a pattern? I do and it’s not a pattern which supports any argument which advances Farish’s thesis: “The Pathologisation of Muslims As Everything That is Wrong With Europe”
Maybe we should be debating the Muslim world’s, apparent, hostility towards the humanities (this is quite overt in Iran at the moment where the regime are threatening to shut down the humanities departments within their Universities completely). Why don’t we have a chat about that? I don’t know but my best guess is that such discourse offers Farish scant opportunity to imply that the Europe which educated him, and which equipped him with his formidable rhetorical tools, is run by a pack of racists and bigots.
I know that Farish’s point was specifically made about Arabs. However I believe that having made it he could perhaps do this Arab demographic a great service by explaining how he managed to thrive in such academic environments. Maybe Farish was obstructed at every step he took. maybe his story is one of heroic triumph over adversity. A Muslim in a rather hostile “abroad.” If that’s so, I’m sure I speak for all his readers when I say, this then is a story we want to hear about. Then again maybe he didn’t. Maybe his actual experience offers little by way of supporting narrative of racism in European educational institutions. Indeed maybe he found himself in vibrant and ecumenical educational environments where all you had to bring to succeed was your intelligence and a capacity for hard work.
In any case Farish dropped a rather big accusation disguised as a casual observation. So casual that perhaps it seems rather unsporting of me to treat it so seriously. I’m sorry if that’s the impression but with so many other, and I contend, more compelling explanations than Farish’s preferred one I think he should be glad of any invitation to support his own contention.
December 16th, 2009 at 03:59
To Fess:
Thank you for your wordy reply to my succint post. Firstly, you singled out the Glasgow doctor as a representation of all muslim doctors in the UK. May I ask why? What does that say about your attitude towards doctors who happened to be muslims, like me? It was business as usual for us doctors in Scotland because these bombers were criminals and was taken as such by the rational Scots and doctors alike. (There is no need to cut and paste from a right leaning newspaper such as the Telegraph which still uses the phrase ‘muslim veil’ I mean, Jesus wept!)
May I also congratulate you on your deep gene pool. But, a proud Irish person like yourself must surely be aware of the carnage that was visited on the UK mainland by the IRA. We almost lost a whole Conservative cabinet thanks to the IRA (I for Irish) bomb in Brighton. Very recently the real IRA (I for Irish) managed to strafe bullets at an army base. Now, do we lump all Irish people as potential bombers as you would like to lump all muslims in Europe as such? It wasn’t that long ago that being Irish was equated to mass emigration, parochialism, fecundity in the guise of pious Catholicism and being symphatisers of the IRA. Do we want to subject a person’s ethicity to subvert justice ala the Birmingham Six? (Perhaps, I can make you understand how annoying your so-called understanding of muslims and muslim society is!)
You said that, “…the US is a republic with strict constitutional separation between church and state. It isn’t a “christian country” it is a republic where the majority of the population are christian”. If this is your line of thought, well.. Why is it that Darwin’s theory has to make way to Creationism in the Bible belt? Why do US presidents swear on the Bible? Then why was the Iraq invasion initially termed a ‘crusade’ and why do US soldiers painted crucifixes in mosques that they destroyed? Why did Bush and Blair claimed that God talked to him and let God be my judge, respectively, when it comes to Iraq and Afghanistan? I don’t believe that God has anything to do with it but I wrote as a response to those who believe that the current carnage in this world is due to muslims alone. Let us stick with that context.
As for the Palestinian deaths and Isreali deaths the ratio is 300 to 1. The Palestinians love their children too. They want their children to have a future, not forever living in an open prison that is Gaza. The Irish migrated when times are hard, the Palestinians get barbed wires and watch towers. http://www.btselem.org http://www.ifamericansknew.org
I’m afraid this post have digressed from the points of the original article by Farish and therefore, I shall stop here.
December 17th, 2009 at 05:16
I’d like to express my thanks Ida Bakar on that most recent post.
Responding to it allows me to examine and highlight aspects around Farish’s notion of “The Pathologisation of Muslims As Everything That is Wrong With Europe” and provide another example as to why he’s barking up the wrong tree. But first a couple of preliminaries.
Ida: As everyone who has read the two posts previous to your latest will know I never tried to cite the Muslim “Glasgow doctor as a representation of all muslim doctors in the UK.” I cited that doctor because you’re guilty of precisely the sin of which you, completely without foundation, accuse me. You offered a statement about the large number of doctors the Muslim community has “contributed” (as if they weren’t trained and paid by the UK) to the health service as if that were some form of a benediction which absolves the Muslim community of culpability for any other wrongdoing. Well not only is that wrong but, as the “example” I provided demonstrated, with crystal clarity, even the taking of the hippocratic oath is no guarantee that a member of this saintly section of society won’t go rogue. In other words I think even someone in a stupor could distinguish which one of us is making the generalization and which one isn’t. I’d like to think the majority of readers of T.O.M can make these distinctions for themselves.
Thank you Ida, I know what the “I” in IRA stands for and I’m delighted you brought this subject up because it permits me the opportunity to reinforce many of the points I’ve already made above. You’re quite correct in saying the IRA almost wiped out a British Government Cabinet and yes they visited carnage elsewhere on the UK mainland too. Yes, recently the Real IRA did strafe bullets at an army base in Northern Ireland. These are all factual statements. Factual statements to which you link a question, this question: “Now, do we lump all Irish people as potential bombers as you would like to lump all muslims in Europe as such?” Well now, I actually have plenty of personal experience to offer on this very subject. After a period in Germany I lived in the UK for a spell back when this conflict was at its height in the 80″s. Did I discern a difference in peoples attitudes towards me from Germany to the UK, I hear you ask. Yes I did. Taking everything into consideration its accurate to say that, on the whole, I was more positively received in Germany. And guess what Ida, I could figure out why too. Let me spell it out to you, in Germany I could hardly be viewed as a threat whereas in the UK I could, quite rightly, be considered one.
Would that excuse me if I were to dismiss the British as inherently racist or bigoted? Well by the logic of Farish’s article it certainly would. But am I inclined to do so, even with Farish’s implied blessing? Simple answer NO, I am not! I’m a grown up. Given the circumstances back then the reluctance of the British to fully embrace an Irishman, without any equivocation, was perfectly understandable. Were any of the British correct in being suspicious of me? Absolutely not, I was a risk to no one. But in such a situation it is imbecilic not to expect a level of profiling would take place.
Those who knew me would have known that I regarded the IRA as a vicious bunch of vermin. But not everyone knew me, so that was the cross I had to bear. I would have preferred were it otherwise but I was intelligent enough, and a big enough boy, to understand the relationship between attacks on UK subjects by the IRA and the less than completely wholesome welcome I received in some quarters while living in the UK. It’s called action and reaction.
You then go on to invoke a string of crude stereotypes of Irish people, and I quote: “It wasn’t that long ago that being Irish was equated to mass emigration, parochialism, fecundity in the guise of pious Catholicism and being symphatisers of the IRA.”
Like a lot of cliche there is something in much of that. It pains me not in the least to admit that, I’m happy to. It doesn’t apply to me personally but you can’t expect to evolve as a person, or as a community, if you aren’t prepared to subject yourself, and your peers, to as much scrutiny, and criticism, as you do others. The Irish have, for example, suffered from mass emigration. There are even Irish who liked to blame all this on the british (is this pattern getting a familiar shape to it yet?), IRA symphatisers? yes and no, any real sympathy for the IRA was localised to certain parts of Northern Ireland and certain of the border counties in the Republic. We’ve an excellent measure for this and that is the trashing in the polls the IRA’s political wing received at general and local elections for decades. The only real upswing they received was once the IRA had declared a ceasefire, see the linkage between downing of arms and electoral approval? Now to “Parochialism, fecundity in the guise of pious Catholicism” well Ida you’re not wrong there, I come out with my hands in the air (to coin a phrase) on this one.
See the difference between you and I on these matters? You seem to be able to forensically hone in on many of the root causes for much that which ails my type, the Irish. However when it comes to a spot of self examination what do we get? We get the the responsibility being shunted onto others. The responses of others are where the fault lies, not with us Muslims, oh never with us.
There are of course other differences. The British and Irish difficulties were easily understood by both sides. It was/is a good old straightforward dispute over territory. The british “get this,” they understand it. Many of them actually still wonder what the hell they’re even doing in Ireland.
Here’s another difference. This was/is a dispute between two neighbors. Just because the UK was/is predominantly Protestant and Ireland predominately Catholic this didn’t attract Italian or French suicide squads to align themselves with the Irish and Dutch/German to align themselves with the UK. Catholics and Protestants worldwide never saw themselves as being religiously obliged to take sides in some form of jihad. See where I’m going here?
The problem in the UK, and elsewhere in Europe, is that no one understands why Muslim immigrants or their offspring (or the offspring of their offspring) continue to identify more strongly with people in remote places than they do with their fellow countrymen (btw, that is a generalization but it’s an apposite one so I’m using it). This is something Europeans struggle with and Muslims would do well to pay heed to this puzzlement. Of course this certainly doesn’t apply to every Muslim, probably not even a majority of Muslims (at least I hope not) but it does apply to enough Muslims to frighten, and increasingly so, a large number of Europeans.
I haven’t the time to take on every one of your rather, I hope you don’t mind me saying, scattergun criticisms of other nations and cultures. As regards the US constitution that can be easily accessed online I suggest you familiarize yourself with it.
As regards Israel I see you’re playing that old numbers game again. Even if I accept your numbers, and I don’t, I do accept there is a disparity. I don’t though think Israel can be blamed for the culture of martyrdom which exists within Islam and in particular within the Gaza strip.
I’ll assume though that you’re not seriously attempting to suggest that HAMAS wouldn’t rather have killed more Jews when they targeted Israeli towns? Prior to the erection of the perimeter wall round the West Bank the suicide slayings of Israelis left no one in any doubt as to whom the Palestinians were targeting. Even after the event, in this case the bombing of the Sbarro Pizzeria, the Palestinians were so pleased with themselves they opened a mock recreation of the the bombed and shattered pizzeria not even having the decency to omit teddy bears and soft toys, placed there to represent the children slaughtered. I provide a link here to a video of this “show” here:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/300355/the_hamas_terror_exhibition_at_nablus_university/
Unfortunately once arms get involved in any dispute the innocent perish along with the guilty. That’s one thing. It’s another thing entirely to glory in their slaughter and mock their loved ones in such fashion. Do I need to link to the Gaza street scenes when thousands were incinerated in New York on 9/11? Does it never occur to Muslims that such moments, such scenes make an indelible impression? Surely that’s the whole point of such gatherings, isn’t it? Then when there is any blow back it never seems to occur to Muslims or their public representatives or their intellectuals, and certainly nothing in any of Ida’s contributions stands in contradiction either, that that which ails them might not be without, but rather within.
This topic was kicked off by Farish. A Malaysian intellectual of international repute. He started thus: “The recent ban on the construction of minarets for mosques in Switzerland - passed by a majority of Swiss citizens mind you - is symptomatic of something that is far more disturbing in Western Europe today.” In doing so he, Farish, echoed the objections of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference who said this: “The decision of the Swiss people stood to be interpreted as xenophobic, prejudiced, discriminative and against the universal human rights values.” That’s the Organisation of the Islamic Conference who are headquartered in…….Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
Now kids you got that didn’t you? The Organisation of the Islamic Conference is striking a blow for universal human rights? Honestly, what are these people smoking? It appears by human rights they mean Muslim Rights or maybe even, and this isn’t that much of a stretch, by “human” they mean “muslim.” What else are non Muslims, or, as we are known in certain circles, Kuffar, to make of such screaming hypocrisy. You can’t even build a church in Saudi Arabia never mind put a spire on it. And it’s not just Saudi, this is a Malaysian blog so I won’t labour the point about Malaysia anymore. This next link is from the NYT and concerns the plight of coptic christians in Egypt:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/world/middleeast/16iht-letter.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
Where do we go from here? Well Muslims can continue to churn out copy like Farish’s above and place the blame on everyone else. That’s just so easy, isn’t it. The Europe which Farish quite disparages (but which nonetheless educated him) has known plenty of it’s own strife. Throughout history these conflicts were either national or even inspired by religion. After 1945 Europeans went to work on the issue of identity. The “it’s all their fault and always was and always will be their fault” game was now busted. Europeans decided to dilute and pool their sovereignty for the greater good of its citizenry. The results have been spectacular and ushered in a period of peace and prosperity which the region has never known before. To have lived in Europe these last decades makes you one of the luckiest people to have ever lived on this patch of land, perhaps any patch of land. Even as, virtually, a kid, an Irish kid living in the UK at a time of, a good deal of, mutual suspicion and rancor I was still one of the luckiest people ever to have lived. I could have looked around for things to have been annoyed or insulted about. I could have taken the behaviour of those individuals who did treat me badly and generalised it as a sign of the inherent racism of the English. I didn’t and if I did I’d have had a lot less of a good time than I did.
Ida, Farish, Europeans have already changed, massively so. Some of it was painful at the time, some of it wasn’t but, for the most part we ended up with a Europe which we like, a lot. It appears you like it too, Ida you live here, Farish your educational attainments were made possible by Europe. It’s liked very much by people from all over the globe infact, a lot of them even decide to move here to live. Most of them adapt and make the most of it and become happy. Some don’t and, usually those who don’t are incredibly inventive at creating explanations which shift the culpability for this failure to other people. That is my principal issue with Farish’t article. It’s just too easy.
December 25th, 2009 at 12:16
,,,O.K. in the spirit of stirring up debate on and about a variety of issues and themes, ranging from the politics of history to the workings of racialised capitalism in the country…may i ?. it may not be so correct but what is right yesterday can be wrong today..the realities of life and living in this changing world of OURs. You and I must admit to that !!. Its all about timings.
,,,immigrants all over the world in-order to survive are found to be particular about coping and displaying to the host or definitive people of the adopted country. New commers or newly citizen feel that unless complete identification is emphasized, they are still in the suspect list and therefore they tend to want to prove their absolute rejection of their foreign origin in terms of behaviour, even at times culture BUT for most muslims these can’t be readily translated into their mindset since you can’t modify the teaching of the Qu’ran, just to fit-in into the system. Religion does play an important role as part and parcel of their daily life style.
,,.in fact in term of race, the japanese/blacks/yellow/brown-Americans fought bloody well indeed for America during the 2nd world war in the Pacific BUT in peace, such fair/balance opportunities do not present themselves. O.K. presently time/things have indeed changed with the new President, and i salute them all. My childhood buddies that have migrated across over in Canada/U.K./USA/Australia…etc not only try to forget their own thousands of years old language and culture, BUT even are darn proud of having done so. So be it, its their life and for their future generation plus its probably a good thing. Only God knows !. And I hope and pray for everyone’s best too.
,,,well, except where ethnic origin is very extreme plus obvious, the process of identification is easily completed within just one generation. Upon which, sentiments, reactions and behaviour would automatically reflect an identification with the migrated country and to the locals.
,,,some Europeans are just still not too confortable as yet with these new Islamic-Muslim immigrants and my guess is only time will change things ??. For better or for worse before a balance be achieved for a peaceful world indeed and for dearest Mother Earth to all her human children….similar issues/problems are being faced everywhere else too.
,,,O.K. coming back closer to home, from the purely pseudo-anthropological viewpoint, then, Malaysia could either be Heaven or Hell (especially with the tumultuous socio-economic and political developments of the last couple of decades which have spawned so many new subspecies overnight). And, of course, it’s really a bit of both or even everything - just like the rest of the planet.
,,,Lets not pretend that this is by any means a comprehensive inventory of Malaysian types. A few specimens are quite impossible to describe, verbally or visually; and some are positively dangerous, far too dangerous to describe with any degree of truthfulness. With this latter category the intrepid blogger researcher runs a very real risk of summary banishment, or incarceration, or mutilation, or execution, or all of the above. Don’t really know, to cry in laughter or shame !?…presently in real time today as I write.
,,,Indeed, a CONFUSING time indeed…but Challenging, I must admit.
I rest my case !.
December 31st, 2009 at 00:37
The vote in favor of banning the construction of minarets reflects a sort of fear in Swiss society that the country is at risk from “outside” radical influences.
I find it hard to understand why a specific ban was needed - surely the minarets would not get planning permission in the first place (because the call to prayer is not allowed in Switzerland - or for that matter most (all?) other European countries.
December 31st, 2009 at 22:05
,,,My Wishes in 2010 God gives you all… 12 Month of Happiness,
52 Weeks of Fun, 365 Days Success, 8760 Hours Good Health, 52600 Minutes Good Luck, 3153600 Seconds of Joy…and that’s all! ”
,,,Lets ALL welcome year 2010 with an open heart yaa !!.
Cheers !
December 31st, 2009 at 22:16
dear dear dear all,
,,,my oh my !!…Reading the various comments make one realize/wonder that as if religion is the most poisonous and corrupt scam invented by man to oppress others. !!.
,,,God or Heaven forbid!! (that) I should suggest or say anything illegal – (Dios me libre de hacer nada ilegal)…O.K. Lets start fresh again in 2010 yaa??. If Not why Not !?.
i rest my case !.
January 5th, 2010 at 11:19
God, there are a lot of closet racists here!!
all these accusations of communities who refuse to assimliate..let’s see..
there was the ‘yellow peril’ from all the chinaman in Limehouse, corrupting the youth with opium,
then there was the jews coming in from east europe, what with their strange beards and synagogues, boy did the local english lads gave them stick, smashing up their homes every now and then..
then there was the irish, well ’nuff said.
then there was the afro-carribeans, stealing, raping white women, creating no-go zones for decent white people..
and now, we got the muslims, who have absolutely nothing better to do then get hysterical over silly things like a few kids in gaza and iraq getting shot for their own good.
tut-tut..
yawn! sounds familiar….oswald mosley, david duke, KKK and Adolph Hitler would be proud..
ps does Fess not go on and on and on? Bless!
and